When do you become a mercenary?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: South somewhere
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When do you become a mercenary?
A civilian friend (and ex military colleague) of mine is working on a contract abroad for a foreign military air force. Not a problem in itself, lots of civilians work as contractors to the military.
But when does being a civilian contractor become a mercenary?
They have been asked to fly (helicopters) on armed missions.These missions have on board a machine gun and ammunition. The whole operation is monitored from the ground by an operations centre via data link. Command and Control is from the Ops Centre. Part of the mission is counter piracy, lookingfor and stopping surface vessels from a neighbouring country, from interfering with and stealing from vessels of the host country.
At times the crew can consist of a mix of military and civilians, but the worst case being:
A civilian Captain, Co-Pilot and Air crewman, with the only military person on board being an observer who is operating the electro optical devices (IR/TV). and acting as the link between the ops centre and the aircraft.
The rules of engagement for stopping the piracy vaguely cover; firing warning shots, immobilising the craft and if that fails, stopping the craft from escaping. The orders to open fire come from the Operations centre.
So are these guys’ mercenaries if they carry out a deliberate action, or even fly on armed missions?
As an ex-military helicopter crewman and ex- Air Gunnery Instructor myself, ultimately, it was always the responsibility of the person pulling the trigger who had to satisfy himself (or herself) that the rules of engagement were met (threat to life, correct sighting/targeting solution, fire aimed shots, minimum force, there is no other way of stopping it etc.).However, the aircraft captain was also responsible for action taken by his aircraft and crew and who is supposed to issue the orders.
If the civilian crew decline the mission or do not carry out a given order to open fire, they will more than likely be sacked for doing so.If they carry out the orders, then they could be subjected to an appearance in an international court facing very severe charges, particularly if there is loss of life or collateral damage.
Over to the floor for your inputs, what do you think? What would you do if you were on this contract?
Me? I think I'd be looking for alternative employment smartish.
But when does being a civilian contractor become a mercenary?
They have been asked to fly (helicopters) on armed missions.These missions have on board a machine gun and ammunition. The whole operation is monitored from the ground by an operations centre via data link. Command and Control is from the Ops Centre. Part of the mission is counter piracy, lookingfor and stopping surface vessels from a neighbouring country, from interfering with and stealing from vessels of the host country.
At times the crew can consist of a mix of military and civilians, but the worst case being:
A civilian Captain, Co-Pilot and Air crewman, with the only military person on board being an observer who is operating the electro optical devices (IR/TV). and acting as the link between the ops centre and the aircraft.
The rules of engagement for stopping the piracy vaguely cover; firing warning shots, immobilising the craft and if that fails, stopping the craft from escaping. The orders to open fire come from the Operations centre.
So are these guys’ mercenaries if they carry out a deliberate action, or even fly on armed missions?
As an ex-military helicopter crewman and ex- Air Gunnery Instructor myself, ultimately, it was always the responsibility of the person pulling the trigger who had to satisfy himself (or herself) that the rules of engagement were met (threat to life, correct sighting/targeting solution, fire aimed shots, minimum force, there is no other way of stopping it etc.).However, the aircraft captain was also responsible for action taken by his aircraft and crew and who is supposed to issue the orders.
If the civilian crew decline the mission or do not carry out a given order to open fire, they will more than likely be sacked for doing so.If they carry out the orders, then they could be subjected to an appearance in an international court facing very severe charges, particularly if there is loss of life or collateral damage.
Over to the floor for your inputs, what do you think? What would you do if you were on this contract?
Me? I think I'd be looking for alternative employment smartish.
Last edited by Stn120; 24th May 2013 at 10:20.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: East Anglia
Posts: 1,873
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Collins 1988 (only one to hand)
From the above yes, your chum is, and should be prepared for the consequences if he does or is associated with bad stuff. Equally I guess his financial package is fairly decent too so does that assuage his conscience or balance the risks for him?
mercenary adj 1. influenced by greed or gain. 2. of or relating to a mercenary or mercenaries. ~n., pl. -naries. 3. a man hired to fight for a foreign army etc. 4. Rare. any person who works solely for pay.
If he's comfortable with the missions and the ROE, finds the level of risk acceptable and his pay is enough to reward his efforts and to cover all the above, where's the issue. Grown man, knows the implications, it's entirely his decission.
If the civilian crew decline the mission or do not carry out a given order to open fire, they will more than likely be sacked for doing so.If they carry out the orders, then they could be subjected to an appearance in an international court facing very severe charges, particularly if there is loss of life or collateral damage.
Also, if the mission is UN-sanctioned anti-piracy, they are very unlikely to be prosecuted if they overstep the ROE. I'm in a similar situation - was instructing as a civilian contractor, then the squadron got deployed on a UN sanctioned mission, so I volunteered to go with them.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: South somewhere
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Trim Stab - As far as I know, this is not a UN sanctioned anti-piracy job.
There are many differing interpretations of Mercenary on the web.
Collins dictionary is where I initially went but it's not cut and dried.
The grey areas are "carrying out the action for financial gain" if they are being paid to do the job, then it could be classed as financial gain.
It is not an armed conflict, but could be classed as this when shots are fired. (even warning shots).
It could spark an international incident in an area that is already unstable.
Maybe they might not be classed as mercenaries but they would certainly be out on their own, I doubt they would receive any support from official sources or sympathy from dear old blighty.
There are many differing interpretations of Mercenary on the web.
Collins dictionary is where I initially went but it's not cut and dried.
The grey areas are "carrying out the action for financial gain" if they are being paid to do the job, then it could be classed as financial gain.
It is not an armed conflict, but could be classed as this when shots are fired. (even warning shots).
It could spark an international incident in an area that is already unstable.
Maybe they might not be classed as mercenaries but they would certainly be out on their own, I doubt they would receive any support from official sources or sympathy from dear old blighty.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,072
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
" I doubt they would receive any support from official sources or sympathy from dear old blighty"
anyone who has ever lived/worked overseas knows that that is the case even if you're Mother Teresa
the UK is infamous for the lack of concern it shows for it's citizens overseas..................
anyone who has ever lived/worked overseas knows that that is the case even if you're Mother Teresa
the UK is infamous for the lack of concern it shows for it's citizens overseas..................
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 2,584
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
By any test of reasonableness getting directly involved in shooting at people as a civilian must be questionable at best.
The criteria that applies, far from any definitions on the web, would be the ever-fuzzy international law and perhaps UN charter. A decision on those if it ever came to be contested would take years to resolve during which said civvie would probably be languishing in some fever-infested hell-hole in one of the areas of the world where he would fervently wish the FCO were a little more caring...and his cell-mates a little less well hung.
Sounds like a walk-away no-brainer to me.
The criteria that applies, far from any definitions on the web, would be the ever-fuzzy international law and perhaps UN charter. A decision on those if it ever came to be contested would take years to resolve during which said civvie would probably be languishing in some fever-infested hell-hole in one of the areas of the world where he would fervently wish the FCO were a little more caring...and his cell-mates a little less well hung.
Sounds like a walk-away no-brainer to me.
Saffer friend who served in UK forces regarded himself as a mercenary.
His own definiton "I am a soldier of my country when serving to protect my country or in its name as laid down by its laws and government"........... His use of soldier defined anybody serving in Navy and Airforce as well as Land Forces.
Serving in the name of any other country he saw himself (and others) as a mercenary doing it either for money / citizenship or both.
No doubt this would be a controversial view as he viewed anybody serving in UK military that was not born in UK or who had not lived in UK for years before joining up as a Mercenary.
He didn't see it as good or bad just he had a clear black and white viewpoint.
His own definiton "I am a soldier of my country when serving to protect my country or in its name as laid down by its laws and government"........... His use of soldier defined anybody serving in Navy and Airforce as well as Land Forces.
Serving in the name of any other country he saw himself (and others) as a mercenary doing it either for money / citizenship or both.
No doubt this would be a controversial view as he viewed anybody serving in UK military that was not born in UK or who had not lived in UK for years before joining up as a Mercenary.
He didn't see it as good or bad just he had a clear black and white viewpoint.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: The Whyte House
Age: 95
Posts: 1,966
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was always a merc. I wouldn't have stayed in 20+ years for anything other than the cash, the job was never* a source of joy.
Sure, I worked with some good people, but there are good people where I work now - being a decent chap or chappess isn't a club exclusively for military folk.
* an exaggeration perhaps, but the enjoyment came from visiting foreign places (not including the middle east), rather than the act of getting there. Frankly the job was s*** whilst in the UK.
Sure, I worked with some good people, but there are good people where I work now - being a decent chap or chappess isn't a club exclusively for military folk.
* an exaggeration perhaps, but the enjoyment came from visiting foreign places (not including the middle east), rather than the act of getting there. Frankly the job was s*** whilst in the UK.
Last edited by Willard Whyte; 25th May 2013 at 10:33.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,797
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The trouble with air to ground gunnery from a helicopter is that you are usually using a ground based machine gun modified for use in the air. That is all well and good but it is an area suppression weapon rather then an accurate weapon. Lawyers will tell you that you are responsible for every bullet including ricochets and murder is murder (in the UK as we do not have homicide in UK Law).
The Lee Clegg affair demonstrates how messy these things can become even if 'delivered' in good faith. I would do it myself but only if I was 100% certain that the Law of the host country would not become an enemy of mine. It is very easy for Mission Focus to lead you into a false sense of security and that is why human shields were invented.
The Lee Clegg affair demonstrates how messy these things can become even if 'delivered' in good faith. I would do it myself but only if I was 100% certain that the Law of the host country would not become an enemy of mine. It is very easy for Mission Focus to lead you into a false sense of security and that is why human shields were invented.