Longer Afghanistan tours for British soldiers
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Longer Afghanistan tours for British soldiers
Absolutely disgusted to read this, this morning. Why??.....just to save a little bit of money I suspect 
BBC News - Longer Afghanistan tours for British soldiers
Also will there be an impact on Sqn tours (and support of course)??
BBC News - Longer Afghanistan tours for British soldiers
Also will there be an impact on Sqn tours (and support of course)??
Last edited by SRENNAPS; 14th May 2013 at 05:19.
This is shocking. I don't know if the casualty stats have changed, but I wouldn't mind listening in to the comments when the lads were told 'we're going to keep you out there 50% longer'
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I suspect that it gets worse
Unless they also change the R&R entitement, it will mean no saving in flights overall, because the RIP will be compensated for by the"second" bit of R&R. If they do change the R&R entitlement then Tommy, Jack and Kevin will be unhappy.
But not nearly as unhappy as when they realise that some staff officers in nominated "continuity" appointments will be getting an enhanced Allowance for the period over 6 months whilst they will not!
The supreme irony is that we are looking to extend tours now for reasons of fore generation, when the six monthitis and poor continuity with the Afghans has been amongst the contributory factors in the failure of the mission.
Stable Doors etc
But not nearly as unhappy as when they realise that some staff officers in nominated "continuity" appointments will be getting an enhanced Allowance for the period over 6 months whilst they will not!
The supreme irony is that we are looking to extend tours now for reasons of fore generation, when the six monthitis and poor continuity with the Afghans has been amongst the contributory factors in the failure of the mission.
Stable Doors etc
Quite a few staff tours were designated as continuity posts and have been 9 months for some time.
Coincidentally, I have just been notified that I will lose two of my 3 RAF staff to AFG on back-to-back OOAs from Aug 13 until Nov 14...
Fair to say that they are sanguine about it. Their names came to the top of the DWR pile and it was their respective turns. It's just a b*gger having to manage such a big gap at work. What disappoints me is that the pain isn't shared equally across the RAF (I can't speak about the other Services); perhaps I harp on about this too often, but there are some quite senior folks who have managed to get promoted by studiously avoiding the desert(s) or spend the minimum amount of time in Theatre in order to get some non-commemorative bling...
Coincidentally, I have just been notified that I will lose two of my 3 RAF staff to AFG on back-to-back OOAs from Aug 13 until Nov 14...
Fair to say that they are sanguine about it. Their names came to the top of the DWR pile and it was their respective turns. It's just a b*gger having to manage such a big gap at work. What disappoints me is that the pain isn't shared equally across the RAF (I can't speak about the other Services); perhaps I harp on about this too often, but there are some quite senior folks who have managed to get promoted by studiously avoiding the desert(s) or spend the minimum amount of time in Theatre in order to get some non-commemorative bling...
Last edited by Whenurhappy; 14th May 2013 at 06:57.
Why??.....just to save a little bit of money I suspect...
BBC News - Syria conflict: US and UK pledge to bolster opposition
actually, it might be an idea to put the outrage bus into neutral.
the tour changeovers are April and October: next April theres a presidential election in Afghanistan, and for very obvious reasons its not considered a clever plan to have the tour changeover at the same time as what could be a spectacularly violent election. then we have the following Herrick tour which is due to leave in October and be replaced by another Bde - except that this Bde with end operations and withdraw a mere 8 weeks later.
does that sound like a clever idea, or an absolute waste of logistics and training effort?
so 2 Bde's get dicked for 9 month tours, allowing continuity, a reduction in the logistic effort, a saving on Herrick medals, not sending 8000 blokes somewhere only to bring them back 8 weeks later - and most importantly it allows the Army to train that Bde in full contingency operations instead of Afghan-centric COIN, meaning the Army will be ready to do a 'proper' war 6 months earlier than it might otherwise be.
the tour changeovers are April and October: next April theres a presidential election in Afghanistan, and for very obvious reasons its not considered a clever plan to have the tour changeover at the same time as what could be a spectacularly violent election. then we have the following Herrick tour which is due to leave in October and be replaced by another Bde - except that this Bde with end operations and withdraw a mere 8 weeks later.
does that sound like a clever idea, or an absolute waste of logistics and training effort?
so 2 Bde's get dicked for 9 month tours, allowing continuity, a reduction in the logistic effort, a saving on Herrick medals, not sending 8000 blokes somewhere only to bring them back 8 weeks later - and most importantly it allows the Army to train that Bde in full contingency operations instead of Afghan-centric COIN, meaning the Army will be ready to do a 'proper' war 6 months earlier than it might otherwise be.
Nine months too long?
Some UK service personnel may have to deploy for up to eight months? I doubt that US service personnel will be that sympathetic:
WASHINGTON (AP) — Soldiers deployed to Afghanistan next year may see their war tours extended because budget cuts will drastically limit training for brigades to replace them, the top Army general said Friday.
...In 2007, the Army extended the year long deployments to 15 months in order to meet the demands of the Iraq war, including the surge of troops ordered by then-President George W. Bush. In many cases, combat brigades returned home and were ordered to deploy again 12 months later, leading top military leaders to worry that the force was being strained almost to the breaking point.
Over time, as the Iraq war ended, the Army deployment times were scaled back to a year, and most are now about nine months long...
I have often wondered how the six-month HERRICK tours of UK forces allow for any continuity or stability in theatre as new arrivals spend much of their time acclimatising, gaining situational awareness and re-building local relationships while their commanders implement ever more initiatives in an attempt to earn their spurs in the limited time they have available.
P.S. The norm for RN SSN deployments is now 10 months.
Originally Posted by CBS 15 Feb 2013
WASHINGTON (AP) — Soldiers deployed to Afghanistan next year may see their war tours extended because budget cuts will drastically limit training for brigades to replace them, the top Army general said Friday.
...In 2007, the Army extended the year long deployments to 15 months in order to meet the demands of the Iraq war, including the surge of troops ordered by then-President George W. Bush. In many cases, combat brigades returned home and were ordered to deploy again 12 months later, leading top military leaders to worry that the force was being strained almost to the breaking point.
Over time, as the Iraq war ended, the Army deployment times were scaled back to a year, and most are now about nine months long...
P.S. The norm for RN SSN deployments is now 10 months.
Last edited by FODPlod; 14th May 2013 at 11:05.
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No complex response from me; I will keep it plain and simple.
Most British troops have served in Afghanistan several times now so “……new arrivals spend much of their time acclimatising and gaining situational awareness…..” is not a significant factor in my opinion. However there is some truth in the statement “commanders implement ever new initiatives in an attempt to earn their spurs in the limited time they have available”.
With respect to the Bde change in the October, there is logic in what you say. However, what happens when the withdrawal moves to the right again and again. You could end up with troops being in a situation where they have no idea when they are coming home or if they will be replaced. You have to stick to a roulement plan or things can get very awkward.
I do not accept the election logic. There have been plenty of elections in Afghanistan over the years, the violence is always the same and the election outcome is definitely always the same. Therefore we can be prepared for a presidential election in other ways rather than making troops stay out there longer.
US Service personnel have always had longer tour lengths, but they also have other factors of service life to compensate for that and these are factors that the British Serviceman does not get. So, no comparison in my opinion.
As I said earlier, it is all down to cost cutting, the fact that we as an armed force are stretched too far and as Beagle suggests it is to stretch even more so that we can potentially accommodate Syria.
Most British troops have served in Afghanistan several times now so “……new arrivals spend much of their time acclimatising and gaining situational awareness…..” is not a significant factor in my opinion. However there is some truth in the statement “commanders implement ever new initiatives in an attempt to earn their spurs in the limited time they have available”.
With respect to the Bde change in the October, there is logic in what you say. However, what happens when the withdrawal moves to the right again and again. You could end up with troops being in a situation where they have no idea when they are coming home or if they will be replaced. You have to stick to a roulement plan or things can get very awkward.
I do not accept the election logic. There have been plenty of elections in Afghanistan over the years, the violence is always the same and the election outcome is definitely always the same. Therefore we can be prepared for a presidential election in other ways rather than making troops stay out there longer.
US Service personnel have always had longer tour lengths, but they also have other factors of service life to compensate for that and these are factors that the British Serviceman does not get. So, no comparison in my opinion.
As I said earlier, it is all down to cost cutting, the fact that we as an armed force are stretched too far and as Beagle suggests it is to stretch even more so that we can potentially accommodate Syria.
It should perhaps be a condition of office that our Government be obliged to put its offspring into front line Service . That is the only thing which might bring decent terms and conditions. To the best of my knowledge, the only leader in that position is HM the Queen.
Long Dets
One of the reasons why I terminated my service some 2 years early is because I was getting fed up with living in a tent 24/7. That is not what I joined up to do. I joined a total different Air Force; almost a flying club. We flew 5 days a week, sport on Wednesday afternoons and loads of time off. We could take a jet away for the weekend and got paid more money that we needed.
More importantly, we got loads of flying hours in! As much as we wanted. And we felt that we were the best. That was so important. The pursuit of excellence was the goal, not how cheap could we achieve the task.
By today's standards life in the Officers' Mess was a bit primitive, but who cared? We had full batting and life in general outside the RAF was also pretty primitive. But the Mess was certainly not a tent. Yes, we did sleep rough at times, but only on survival courses or in the bushes outside the pub on a Saturday night.
Don't get me wrong...when younger I did sleep rough at times, under boulders in the Llanberis Pass or tied to a rock face half way up a mountain in the Alps. But when one passes thirty the appeal wears off. When one passes sixty the minimum standard is a warm double bed and ensuite; preferable with a lovely lady
Once married, a week away from home was not good, especially when the new baby arrived. A month was far too long. Those who did volunteer for long dets found that divorce loomed... it happened to me... I found out whilst on active service!
Nine months is ok for some... but bad news for others.
ps though I did terminate my service some two years early, I did still serve for 39 years! Most of which was absolutely brilliant!
More importantly, we got loads of flying hours in! As much as we wanted. And we felt that we were the best. That was so important. The pursuit of excellence was the goal, not how cheap could we achieve the task.
By today's standards life in the Officers' Mess was a bit primitive, but who cared? We had full batting and life in general outside the RAF was also pretty primitive. But the Mess was certainly not a tent. Yes, we did sleep rough at times, but only on survival courses or in the bushes outside the pub on a Saturday night.
Don't get me wrong...when younger I did sleep rough at times, under boulders in the Llanberis Pass or tied to a rock face half way up a mountain in the Alps. But when one passes thirty the appeal wears off. When one passes sixty the minimum standard is a warm double bed and ensuite; preferable with a lovely lady
Once married, a week away from home was not good, especially when the new baby arrived. A month was far too long. Those who did volunteer for long dets found that divorce loomed... it happened to me... I found out whilst on active service!
Nine months is ok for some... but bad news for others.
ps though I did terminate my service some two years early, I did still serve for 39 years! Most of which was absolutely brilliant!
Originally Posted by sharpend
One of the reasons why I terminated my service some 2 years early is because I was getting fed up with living in a tent 24/7. That is not what I joined up to do...
Last edited by FODPlod; 14th May 2013 at 11:16.
Actually, my Father was in the RAF in the Second World War... being a fighter pilot in the Battle of Britain was not all bad nor did they suffer camping hardship... read 'The Silver Spitfire' by Tom Neil.. much of the time they lived in manor houses and had a great time. Most 'proper' pilots, including myself, would give their eye teeth to have been there. 
However, being shot down in flames probably was not much fun!
And I'm not so sure about being a Lancaster pilot though. They certainly were the bravest of the brave.
And most of the civilians in London had a terrible time. But they did party as if there was no tomorrow. Often there was not.
However, being shot down in flames probably was not much fun!And I'm not so sure about being a Lancaster pilot though. They certainly were the bravest of the brave.
And most of the civilians in London had a terrible time. But they did party as if there was no tomorrow. Often there was not.
Last edited by sharpend; 14th May 2013 at 11:43.
Originally Posted by cokecan
actually, it might be an idea to put the outrage bus into neutral.
the tour changeovers are April and October: next April theres a presidential election in Afghanistan, and for very obvious reasons its not considered a clever plan to have the tour changeover at the same time as what could be a spectacularly violent election. then we have the following Herrick tour which is due to leave in October and be replaced by another Bde - except that this Bde with end operations and withdraw a mere 8 weeks later.
does that sound like a clever idea, or an absolute waste of logistics and training effort?
so 2 Bde's get dicked for 9 month tours, allowing continuity, a reduction in the logistic effort, a saving on Herrick medals, not sending 8000 blokes somewhere only to bring them back 8 weeks later - and most importantly it allows the Army to train that Bde in full contingency operations instead of Afghan-centric COIN, meaning the Army will be ready to do a 'proper' war 6 months earlier than it might otherwise be.
the tour changeovers are April and October: next April theres a presidential election in Afghanistan, and for very obvious reasons its not considered a clever plan to have the tour changeover at the same time as what could be a spectacularly violent election. then we have the following Herrick tour which is due to leave in October and be replaced by another Bde - except that this Bde with end operations and withdraw a mere 8 weeks later.
does that sound like a clever idea, or an absolute waste of logistics and training effort?
so 2 Bde's get dicked for 9 month tours, allowing continuity, a reduction in the logistic effort, a saving on Herrick medals, not sending 8000 blokes somewhere only to bring them back 8 weeks later - and most importantly it allows the Army to train that Bde in full contingency operations instead of Afghan-centric COIN, meaning the Army will be ready to do a 'proper' war 6 months earlier than it might otherwise be.
British Expeditionary Force
Actually, looking again at FOD Plod's photo (correct me if I am wrong) but it appears to show a group of Fairy Battle pilots somewhere in France circa 39 - 40. The Fairy Battle, and indeed the Boulton Paul Defiant, were no match for experienced Luffwaffe pilots in Me 109s.
Those RAF pilots did live in tents and were often on the move, mainly in retreat. Those who survived to fight the Battle of Britain were heroes, but perhaps those of the British Expeditionary Force were unsung heroes.
Incidentally, as this topic is about tour lengths, my Father went to war in 1939 and came home in 1945. His detachment lasted over 5 years!
Moreover, in 1937, he married on a Saturday and sailed in HMS Glorious the next day. That night a fierce storm blew up and a chimney pot fell on his new bride as she lay in bed, killing her instantly. He was not told of her death for 3 months!
Times are now hard in HM Forces, but harder then!
Those RAF pilots did live in tents and were often on the move, mainly in retreat. Those who survived to fight the Battle of Britain were heroes, but perhaps those of the British Expeditionary Force were unsung heroes.
Incidentally, as this topic is about tour lengths, my Father went to war in 1939 and came home in 1945. His detachment lasted over 5 years!
Moreover, in 1937, he married on a Saturday and sailed in HMS Glorious the next day. That night a fierce storm blew up and a chimney pot fell on his new bride as she lay in bed, killing her instantly. He was not told of her death for 3 months!
Times are now hard in HM Forces, but harder then!
Originally Posted by sharpend
Actually, looking again at FOD Plod's photo (correct me if I am wrong) but it appears to show a group of Fairy Battle pilots somewhere in France circa 39 - 40. The Fairy Battle, and indeed the Boulton Paul Defiant, were no match for experienced Luffwaffe pilots in Me 109s...
Strange to think that the Battle of France was all over in six weeks.
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Times are now hard in HM Forces, but harder then!
During my (nearly) 30 years I moaned about some of the dets I did…..but I know that they were picnic grounds to what he went through. It was something I always really did appreciate when I was away on one of my many 3 or 4 month trips to the desert.
But at the end of the day, in the year 2013, we should be continually improving conditions, not making them worse to save a bit of money! And mark my words, they may say this is just for the withdrawal phase of Afghanistan but I suggest it will set a precedent for tour lengths during future deployments around the world.
Harry - one concurs.
if people don't like the idea of spending more time than is ideal in far-flung, war-torn ****holes, perhaps they ought not to bother applying to join the Forces...
if people don't like the idea of spending more time than is ideal in far-flung, war-torn ****holes, perhaps they ought not to bother applying to join the Forces...
'if people don't like the idea of spending more time than is ideal in far-flung, war-torn ****holes, perhaps they ought not to bother applying to join the Forces... '
Trouble is, for the average 17 year old, he cannot see further than his nose! When I joined, I had absolutely no idea of what lay ahead; all I wanted to do was fly.
For the average squaddie, he wants a job and the recruiting sergeant will not be telling him the bad bits!
Trouble is, for the average 17 year old, he cannot see further than his nose! When I joined, I had absolutely no idea of what lay ahead; all I wanted to do was fly.
For the average squaddie, he wants a job and the recruiting sergeant will not be telling him the bad bits!