Never enough range
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,072
Received 2,940 Likes
on
1,252 Posts
Don't forget the Turboprop version of the P-51 that was designed as a COIN aircraft.
Piper PA-48 Enforcer - close support aircraft
Piper PA-48 Enforcer - close support aircraft
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
HH, was not the Frightening the result of pressing an experimental airframe in to service post-Sandys missile-fest?
While it survived into the late '80s it should really have been replaced by the F4 from the early '70s if the F4 hadn't been used to replace the F111 which should have replaced the TSR2 which should have replaced the Canberra until the AFVG didn't.
Or something like that
While it survived into the late '80s it should really have been replaced by the F4 from the early '70s if the F4 hadn't been used to replace the F111 which should have replaced the TSR2 which should have replaced the Canberra until the AFVG didn't.
Or something like that
24 Sep 1987 - A Tornado F3, ZE155, from Boscombe Down, made the first non-stop un-refuelled crossing of the Atlantic by a British jet fighter. The sortie covered 2,200nms in 4 hr 45 min, and took place as the aircraft returned from Arizona after a series of tropical trials.
Here she is with only the 2250L tanks fitted, for the non-stop flight she had some 1500L tanks fitted underneath as well.
I miss the old girl...
LJ
Here she is with only the 2250L tanks fitted, for the non-stop flight she had some 1500L tanks fitted underneath as well.
I miss the old girl...
LJ
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 28th Apr 2013 at 21:22.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sale, Australia
Age: 80
Posts: 3,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ed Schmeud ,who just happened to be ex- Messerschmitt
Edgar Schmued was born in Hornbach, Germany, 30 December 1899. At age eight, he first saw an airplane in flight and decided that aviation was to be his life's work. Edgar embarked early on a rigorous program of self-study to become an engineer, and later served an apprenticeship in a small engine factory. He also designed several innovative engine components for which he received patents. In his spare time, he continued the self-study of aviation. Schmued left his native Bavaria for Brazil in 1925, seven years after World War I had shattered the German economy. His experience in Germany led to employment with the General Aviation, the air branch of General Motors Corporation in Brazil. In 1931, he was sponsored to come to the United States through his excellent work for General Motors in Brazil (immigration rules were extremely strict at that time - he was one of 794 people admitted in the quota) and went straight to work for Fokker Aircraft Corporation of America, which was an aircraft company that was owned by General Motors and based in New Jersey.There he began his career as an aircraft design engineer. General Motors later sold its air arm and it became the forerunner of North American Aviation.
The talented and inventive Schmued, by now a citizen of the United States, was employed by North American Aviation (NAA) in Dundalk, Maryland. After leaving North American, he spent five years as an aircraft designer for the Northrop Corporation, where he helped design the F-5 and the T-38.
Edgar Schmued died at Oceanside, California, on 1 June 1985.
I just love the back and forth about the Spitfire and Mustang. American Airframe, British Engine, American 100 Octane Fuel versus British 87 Octane Petrol.
As I recall we were Allies....and cooperated with each other in many ways....Radar, Sonar, Jet Engine Technology and so many others.
We must never forget as we hear all the time...."The Yanks....over paid, over sexed, and over here!".
Or as I have heard it on rare occasions...."The Brits....under paid, under sexed....and under Eisenhower!".
As I recall we were Allies....and cooperated with each other in many ways....Radar, Sonar, Jet Engine Technology and so many others.
We must never forget as we hear all the time...."The Yanks....over paid, over sexed, and over here!".
Or as I have heard it on rare occasions...."The Brits....under paid, under sexed....and under Eisenhower!".
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sale, Australia
Age: 80
Posts: 3,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As I recall we were Allies....and cooperated with each other in many ways
The set up is known as a "Meredith radiator" ie one making use of the "Meredith effect".
Ed Schmeud
That is a interesting observation Brian on something that I had taken as a fact for a very long time.
Just looking at some of the popular aviation press over the years:
Bill Green has him as Ex- Fokker and Messerchmitt in his "Famous Fighters " in 1957. Chris Shores has him as Ex-Messerschmitt In AE 2 of c.1977, By May 1999 Micheal O'leary certainly has him as a General Motors field service manager in Brazil ( Aeroplane monthly) and Ken Wixey repeats the ex-Fokker /Messerschmitt story in Air Enthusiast 95 in 2001.
"Circular reporting" gives often erroneous stories increasing apparent credibility and this looks like being another example, if you have a verifiable source.
I agree that sweeping unilateral claims for " invention" in aviation are often suspect and the international exchange of knowledge and ideas (although sometimes surreptitious) is often conveniently overlooked ,the Mustang radiator system with its ( admittedly well implemented) Meredith effect being an example.
Just looking at some of the popular aviation press over the years:
Bill Green has him as Ex- Fokker and Messerchmitt in his "Famous Fighters " in 1957. Chris Shores has him as Ex-Messerschmitt In AE 2 of c.1977, By May 1999 Micheal O'leary certainly has him as a General Motors field service manager in Brazil ( Aeroplane monthly) and Ken Wixey repeats the ex-Fokker /Messerschmitt story in Air Enthusiast 95 in 2001.
"Circular reporting" gives often erroneous stories increasing apparent credibility and this looks like being another example, if you have a verifiable source.
I agree that sweeping unilateral claims for " invention" in aviation are often suspect and the international exchange of knowledge and ideas (although sometimes surreptitious) is often conveniently overlooked ,the Mustang radiator system with its ( admittedly well implemented) Meredith effect being an example.
Last edited by Haraka; 29th Apr 2013 at 07:32.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sale, Australia
Age: 80
Posts: 3,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Haraka, it's easy to see where the story about Ed Schmued may have originated. One wonders where "Flight" got thier information, and 1942 being early in the war whether there may have been other motivations eg propaganda, though it's hard to imagine why. Perhaps the fact that the 51 had visual similarities to the 109 in some way gave impetus to the story.
www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1942/1942 - 1599.html
"MUSTANG DESIGNER: Edgar Schmued and the P-51" by Ray Wagner gives Eds background.
www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1942/1942 - 1599.html
It is built to a British specification and has a distinct streak of the Messerschmitt 109 in its make-up. This is not to be wondered at when it is remembered that the designer spent some 12 years in Messerschmitt's drawing office. This is not the first case of design staffs changing their allegiance and merging the products of two firms.
Brian. Well that just about puts the cap neatly on it!
The first version of the story I ever heard was that Schmeud got himself out of Messerschmitt for moral reasons, effectively becoming a refugee , when he saw which way it was all going politically in 1935/6.
This thus could well originally have been a crude piece of propaganda which resurfaced in the Flight article.
I would certainly place Ray Wagner's account above all that!
Ah well, back to the thread!
The first version of the story I ever heard was that Schmeud got himself out of Messerschmitt for moral reasons, effectively becoming a refugee , when he saw which way it was all going politically in 1935/6.
This thus could well originally have been a crude piece of propaganda which resurfaced in the Flight article.
I would certainly place Ray Wagner's account above all that!
Ah well, back to the thread!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
[QUOTE=Brian Abraham;7817271One wonders where "Flight" got thier information, and 1942 being early in the war whether there may have been other motivations eg propaganda, though it's hard to imagine why.[/QUOTE]
Don't underestimate the Ministry of Economic Warfare or of propaganda (which we pretended we didn't use). Suggesting that he had been instrumental in designing the Me109 and then defected to the Allies where he improved on the Me109 to create the P51 would have been powerful stuff.
Don't underestimate the Ministry of Economic Warfare or of propaganda (which we pretended we didn't use). Suggesting that he had been instrumental in designing the Me109 and then defected to the Allies where he improved on the Me109 to create the P51 would have been powerful stuff.
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: South Africa
Age: 87
Posts: 1,329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rather than why not replace a Merlin with a Griffon in the P-51, why not replace the Allison's with Merlin's in the P-38?
After all, the P-51 experience had shown that it worked!
After all, the P-51 experience had shown that it worked!
Would the Mozzie have benefited from installing the Griffin Engines instead of the two Merlins?
"You can never have too much fuel"
A thirsty F4, or even better a Buccaneer demanding the centreline was a welcome sight, a Lightning F3 with its pathetic fuel capacity less so.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,072
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pontius asked "HH, was not the Frightening the result of pressing an experimental airframe in to service post-Sandys missile-fest?"
the original requirement was ER103 in May 1947 which asked for an experimental high speed aircraft that could be developed into a fighter ( the SR53 came from a similar background). Contract was awarded in April 1950, first flight (P.1A) August 1954, second aircraft armed flew in July 1955. It was redesigned as an all weather fighter (the P.1B) which first flew on 4th April 1957 - the very day the Sandys Report was published - the Lightning was too far along to cancel but they cut development funds for the additional rocket engine planned (!!!)
So it was well pre Sandys and the design was at least partly meant to be an interceptor from Day 1. I suspect the early post war date is a clue to the lack of range - still thinking about the Battle of Britain - the Mk 6 had over twice the fuel of the P.1B
the original requirement was ER103 in May 1947 which asked for an experimental high speed aircraft that could be developed into a fighter ( the SR53 came from a similar background). Contract was awarded in April 1950, first flight (P.1A) August 1954, second aircraft armed flew in July 1955. It was redesigned as an all weather fighter (the P.1B) which first flew on 4th April 1957 - the very day the Sandys Report was published - the Lightning was too far along to cancel but they cut development funds for the additional rocket engine planned (!!!)
So it was well pre Sandys and the design was at least partly meant to be an interceptor from Day 1. I suspect the early post war date is a clue to the lack of range - still thinking about the Battle of Britain - the Mk 6 had over twice the fuel of the P.1B
Except that on a North Sea towline in a tanker full of
The tanks held 12.500 lbs each and could not start feeding until about an hour's flying. Friday afternoon pilots, like me, used to keep as much as possible in them so they could be cleared and therefore ensure a timely arrival at TGIF.
There used to be some really long unforcast contrails above East Anglia.
Last edited by Fareastdriver; 29th Apr 2013 at 18:25.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: East Sussex
Age: 86
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Trouble was that it took rather a long time for the fuel to drop out of the three holes unles you open the nitrogen bottles. But then, that wasn't much talked about was it?