Here it comes: Syria
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Torono
Age: 56
Posts: 150
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi LW50, thanks for the response, although I have no idea how you conclude bias from ramblings (opionionated or otherwise) on a cyber forum. Sometimes it's good to play good cop and bad cop in order to strike a balanced opinion.
But for all their liberal values, I would just ask the politicians to answer one question: how did we, UK plc, feel when it transpired that the Libyans were arming the IRA? Because this is a carbon copy - we are seeking to arm a section of society in another country because we believe they are right, whilst the sitting government believes that very same section of society to be terrorists.
Also Iraqi Shiite militias are now poring in on the side of the rebels. Making the conflict even more sectarian.
Problem is, you can't protect the innocents when the crossfire is still going on. At the root of this is not a desire to get involved on either side per se, but the problem of whether involvement will stop said crossfire. My take is that any foreign intervention will just get both sides shooting at you, and the innocents will still get killed.
As perhaps with many civil wars, the only options for the innocents are to flee the warzone or to cease being innocents and choose sides.
EDIT:
Vlad says it makes no sense to arm terroristic Islamists
At least 600 Russians and Europeans fighting alongside Syrian opposition ? Putin ? RT News
I mostly agree with him, but there's one small bit he's not mentioning.
This whole dick measuring contest has to do with regional strategy, which means Iran. The US did Iran a huge favor by taking out Saddam. So, now that has to be corrected for. Looked at through that lens, a few hundred thousand dead Arabs of various sorts in the middle east doesn't matter, does it? See 8 years of war between Iran and Iran for an interesting parallel on what price is deemed suitable to give Iran the mickey.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 24th Jun 2013 at 18:39.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Dozens dead as Syrian war spreads to Sidon in Lebanon
Snipers out on the streets as Lebanese army scours city for anti-Hezbollah cleric
Snipers out on the streets as Lebanese army scours city for anti-Hezbollah cleric
The Washington Post reported this morning that the Russians are pulling what few of their citizens remain in Syria, at Tartus, out.
Their task force will, when needed, make port calls in Cyprus. (I imagine elsewhere as well, depending upon political things ... )
The article implied that this isn't a sudden move, but a culmination of slowly removing some 30,000 Russian citizens from Syria over the last year or so.
It also makes me wonder: removing a potential source of friction between UN/NATO and Russia should our pols get a bit more froggy?
Not sure what to make of this.
Their task force will, when needed, make port calls in Cyprus. (I imagine elsewhere as well, depending upon political things ... )
The article implied that this isn't a sudden move, but a culmination of slowly removing some 30,000 Russian citizens from Syria over the last year or so.
It also makes me wonder: removing a potential source of friction between UN/NATO and Russia should our pols get a bit more froggy?
Not sure what to make of this.
Interesting report, Lonewolf.
The report has appeared in the Russian media.
All personnel withdrawn from Russian navy base in Syria - diplomat ? RT Russian politics
The Black Sea Fleet Amur Class Repair Ship PM-138 is still hove to at Tartus. She arrived there during late April 2013. PM-138 regularly sends a Morse weather message. I just checked the 18Z transmission on 8345 Kilohertz. The weather report contains a lat long, course and speed.
8345 RCV DE RBIZ 27181 99349 10358 22200 @1813Z
34.9N 35.8E Hove to Tartus, Syria
34.9N 35.8E - Google Maps
Image of PM-138 on her way to Tartus to replace Amur Class (PM-56)
PM-138 Russian Floating Workshop Passing Through Bosphorus |
The following website is excellent for keeping track of Russian Navy movements through the Turkish Straits.
Russian Warship Movements Through Turkish Straits (Part 15) |
The report has appeared in the Russian media.
All personnel withdrawn from Russian navy base in Syria - diplomat
Russia’s Deputy Foreign Minister says all personnel had been evacuated from the navy resupply base in Tartus, Syria, adding that not a single Russian military serviceman remained in the country.
Mikhail Bogdanov made the announcement in an interview with the Al-Hayat newspaper. “Presently, the Russian Defense Ministry has not a single person stationed in Syria. The base does not have any strategic military importance,” the newspaper quoted the Russian official as saying.
Russian media have verified the statement and the business daily Vedomosti quoted an unnamed source in the Defense Ministry as saying that this was true as all military and civilian personnel had been evacuated from the Tartus base and there were no Russian military instructors working with the Syrian military forces. The source added that the withdrawal was prompted not only by the increased risks caused by the ongoing military conflict, but also by the fact that in the current conditions any incident involving Russian servicemen would likely have some unfavorable reaction from the international community.
Russia’s Deputy Foreign Minister says all personnel had been evacuated from the navy resupply base in Tartus, Syria, adding that not a single Russian military serviceman remained in the country.
Mikhail Bogdanov made the announcement in an interview with the Al-Hayat newspaper. “Presently, the Russian Defense Ministry has not a single person stationed in Syria. The base does not have any strategic military importance,” the newspaper quoted the Russian official as saying.
Russian media have verified the statement and the business daily Vedomosti quoted an unnamed source in the Defense Ministry as saying that this was true as all military and civilian personnel had been evacuated from the Tartus base and there were no Russian military instructors working with the Syrian military forces. The source added that the withdrawal was prompted not only by the increased risks caused by the ongoing military conflict, but also by the fact that in the current conditions any incident involving Russian servicemen would likely have some unfavorable reaction from the international community.
The Black Sea Fleet Amur Class Repair Ship PM-138 is still hove to at Tartus. She arrived there during late April 2013. PM-138 regularly sends a Morse weather message. I just checked the 18Z transmission on 8345 Kilohertz. The weather report contains a lat long, course and speed.
8345 RCV DE RBIZ 27181 99349 10358 22200 @1813Z
34.9N 35.8E Hove to Tartus, Syria
34.9N 35.8E - Google Maps
Image of PM-138 on her way to Tartus to replace Amur Class (PM-56)
PM-138 Russian Floating Workshop Passing Through Bosphorus |
The following website is excellent for keeping track of Russian Navy movements through the Turkish Straits.
Russian Warship Movements Through Turkish Straits (Part 15) |
Teej, thanks.
The Russian task force remaining in the Med is the more important consideration, and I don't think it's going anywhere any time soon.
The Russian task force remaining in the Med is the more important consideration, and I don't think it's going anywhere any time soon.
No problem, Lonewolf.
The Admiral Kuznetsov Carrier Group is scheduled to make a return to the Mediterranean by the end of 2013. The Russians are also seeking use of a Cypriot air base and port facilities.
Cyprus considering Russian use of Limassol port, Paphos airbase - UPI.com
Admiral Kuznetsov aircraft carrier to start long-range mission in Mediterranean in late 2013 | Russia Beyond The Headlines
The Admiral Kuznetsov Carrier Group is scheduled to make a return to the Mediterranean by the end of 2013. The Russians are also seeking use of a Cypriot air base and port facilities.
Financially strapped Cyprus is looking at allowing Russian military aircraft to use an airbase in Paphos, the country's defense minister said this weekend.
Cypriot Defense Minister Fotis Fotiu told the Nicosia daily Fileleftheros the country was "studying the possibility of providing in certain cases" the use of the Andreas Papandreou Air Force Base for Russian military aircraft.
He also indicated allowing Russian warships to use the port of Limassol was under consideration, less than two weeks after Russian President Vladimir Putin announced the restoration of a permanent presence for the Russian fleet in the Mediterranean.
Cypriot Defense Minister Fotis Fotiu told the Nicosia daily Fileleftheros the country was "studying the possibility of providing in certain cases" the use of the Andreas Papandreou Air Force Base for Russian military aircraft.
He also indicated allowing Russian warships to use the port of Limassol was under consideration, less than two weeks after Russian President Vladimir Putin announced the restoration of a permanent presence for the Russian fleet in the Mediterranean.
The Admiral Kuznetsov heavy aircraft carrier will be ready to act as part of a Russian naval group in the Mediterranean by the end of 2013, Navy Commander Adm. Viktor Chirkov said.
"The cruiser will complete its planned maintenance at the end of the year. It is expected to put out and perform a number of missions in an offshore oceanic zone as part of a group.
"The cruiser will complete its planned maintenance at the end of the year. It is expected to put out and perform a number of missions in an offshore oceanic zone as part of a group.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another day, another atrocity...
Catholic Priest 'Beheaded by Al-Qaida Fighters' in Northern Syria - IBTimes UK
Catholic Priest 'Beheaded by Al-Qaida Fighters' in Northern Syria - IBTimes UK
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Annapolis, MD
Age: 86
Posts: 429
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
During a congressional hearing on Syria’s religious minorities on Tuesday last week, testimony came out that Syrians are asking why the Unites States is supporting the Islamic extremists who want to turn Syria into an Islamic state.
In an opening statement at Tuesday's hearing, Chairman Smith said statistics show "that Christians are even more fearful for their lives and safety than other segments of the Syrian population."
Nina Shea, director of the Hudson Institute's Center for Religious Freedom, testified that Islamic insurgents are targeting Christians for "ethno-religious cleansing."
Christian Solidarity International CEO Dr. John Eibner, recently in Syria and who also testified at the hearing, said the United States should work with Russia to negotiate a peace rather than help Sunni Muslims turn the country into an Islamic state.
Interesting concept there, work with the Russians to get a solution, but I doubt if Obama would go for that.
Bob C
In an opening statement at Tuesday's hearing, Chairman Smith said statistics show "that Christians are even more fearful for their lives and safety than other segments of the Syrian population."
Nina Shea, director of the Hudson Institute's Center for Religious Freedom, testified that Islamic insurgents are targeting Christians for "ethno-religious cleansing."
Christian Solidarity International CEO Dr. John Eibner, recently in Syria and who also testified at the hearing, said the United States should work with Russia to negotiate a peace rather than help Sunni Muslims turn the country into an Islamic state.
Interesting concept there, work with the Russians to get a solution, but I doubt if Obama would go for that.
Bob C
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 59
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Interesting concept there, work with the Russians to get a solution, but I doubt if Obama would go for that."
Nope, because he would have to share the limelight.
He also can't see that Russia might be a good party to use
as a negotiator as they have history in the country.
Nope, because he would have to share the limelight.
He also can't see that Russia might be a good party to use
as a negotiator as they have history in the country.
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: South East England
Posts: 304
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MANPAD attrition of regime helicopters continues + many destroyed on the ground.
Lots of government armour being destroyed by ATGMs. The rebels seem to have a plentiful supply of these.
On the government side there are lots of Iranians and Hezbollah who seem to be far more effective than Syrian troops.
Likewise the rebel fighting now seems to be mainly the Jihadist Al Nusra Front, who are largely foreigners. They are very effective firstly because many of them are experienced fighters from other conflicts such as Chechnya, Libya and Iraq. Secondly because their nutty religion says that their death caused by a war against fellow muslims is a very good thing. These salafists are attacking Syrian Christian civilians at random.
However bad things are now, they are going to get worse. Neither side thinks they can lose, or wants to negotiate. There is massive destruction in the country, infrastructure, buildings, military equipment and human lives. It is becoming a battlefield of rubble, like Beirut. The most effective weapons are man portable. Anything much bigger is vulnerable. Saudi, Qatar and now the USA are pouring man portable weapons into the country to keep the rebels effective. Most of these weapons end up with Al Nusra.
Israel is gearing up to act. Their air force have just finished a major exercise in Bulgaria against an integrated air defence. Israel have struck several times in Syria this year, mostly unreported. They don't want Syria to become an Iranian proxy on their doorstep.
Lots of government armour being destroyed by ATGMs. The rebels seem to have a plentiful supply of these.
On the government side there are lots of Iranians and Hezbollah who seem to be far more effective than Syrian troops.
Likewise the rebel fighting now seems to be mainly the Jihadist Al Nusra Front, who are largely foreigners. They are very effective firstly because many of them are experienced fighters from other conflicts such as Chechnya, Libya and Iraq. Secondly because their nutty religion says that their death caused by a war against fellow muslims is a very good thing. These salafists are attacking Syrian Christian civilians at random.
However bad things are now, they are going to get worse. Neither side thinks they can lose, or wants to negotiate. There is massive destruction in the country, infrastructure, buildings, military equipment and human lives. It is becoming a battlefield of rubble, like Beirut. The most effective weapons are man portable. Anything much bigger is vulnerable. Saudi, Qatar and now the USA are pouring man portable weapons into the country to keep the rebels effective. Most of these weapons end up with Al Nusra.
Israel is gearing up to act. Their air force have just finished a major exercise in Bulgaria against an integrated air defence. Israel have struck several times in Syria this year, mostly unreported. They don't want Syria to become an Iranian proxy on their doorstep.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,915
Received 2,838 Likes
on
1,212 Posts
Says it all really, one supposes these are the other lot that Haig isn't going to arm.
15-year-old boy executed for blasphemy by Syria jihadists - Telegraph
Horrific video shows Syrian Catholic priest being 'beheaded by jihadist fighters in front of cheering crowd' | Mail Online
Al-Qaeda calls on Syrian rebels to build anti-Western state - Telegraph
The current encumbant suddenly starts to look not that bad.
..
15-year-old boy executed for blasphemy by Syria jihadists - Telegraph
Horrific video shows Syrian Catholic priest being 'beheaded by jihadist fighters in front of cheering crowd' | Mail Online
Al-Qaeda calls on Syrian rebels to build anti-Western state - Telegraph
The current encumbant suddenly starts to look not that bad.
..
Last edited by NutLoose; 2nd Jul 2013 at 09:38.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Western support for these rebels is disgusting. I am totally ashamed at what our leaders are doing. We keep getting told about the terrorist threat we apparently face and yet our government are supporting the terrorists!
I am sure Libya was much the same.
I am sure Libya was much the same.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: No longer a hot and sandy place....but back to the UK for an indefinite period
Posts: 177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Why on earth do the Western politicians once again believe that supplying arms to extremists is a good idea and the weapons will never be used against us?
We should follow the lead of Turkey, Brazil & Egypt, and organise mass protests to show our respective governments how much we despise them.
As an aside, imagine the uproar in the Islamic world if we beheaded a Mullah with a kitchen knife and allowed the images to go viral.
Why on earth do the Western politicians once again believe that supplying arms to extremists is a good idea and the weapons will never be used against us?
We should follow the lead of Turkey, Brazil & Egypt, and organise mass protests to show our respective governments how much we despise them.
As an aside, imagine the uproar in the Islamic world if we beheaded a Mullah with a kitchen knife and allowed the images to go viral.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the major concern is that Syria's CW's will be used against the West, then why give military support to the so called "rebels", which include the salafists, and hence destabilizing the nation to the point where they could fall into the wrong hands?
The double-speak, propaganda, and hypocrisy of the West's involvement in Syria is despicable!
The double-speak, propaganda, and hypocrisy of the West's involvement in Syria is despicable!
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Bury St. Edmunds
Age: 64
Posts: 539
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I see al lot of parallels between the Spanish Civil War, which to various degrees involved Germany and Italy giving their support to Franco whilst an "international brigade" took sides with the Nationalists who eventually lost convincingly, after ten of thousands were killed either in combat or in multiple atrocities, carried out by both sides.
The main point is that then the League of Nations took no part and the major powers UK, France, USA just watched or tried to enforce a weak naval blockade, or did nothing. Just like the UN et al are doing now.
The whole of the Middle East is a tinder-box and parts have already been set alight and the "fire" is now out of control now and arming the rebels (whoever they are) won't stop the fire spreading or put it out.
The traditional super powers are weaker now in relative terms then they were during the height of the cold war and the threat of intervention is no longer a deterrent in the way it perhaps once was. Emerging powers in the region such as Saudi Arabia and Turkey are not ready to support intervention by a UN-backed coalition and in any event Russia and China have their own agendas and would veto even the introduction of a no-fly zone.
In short, the West is s*****ed! I am afraid IMHO that it will get a lot worse for the people of Syria (on both sides) before the killing and destruction will stop.
MB
The main point is that then the League of Nations took no part and the major powers UK, France, USA just watched or tried to enforce a weak naval blockade, or did nothing. Just like the UN et al are doing now.
The whole of the Middle East is a tinder-box and parts have already been set alight and the "fire" is now out of control now and arming the rebels (whoever they are) won't stop the fire spreading or put it out.
The traditional super powers are weaker now in relative terms then they were during the height of the cold war and the threat of intervention is no longer a deterrent in the way it perhaps once was. Emerging powers in the region such as Saudi Arabia and Turkey are not ready to support intervention by a UN-backed coalition and in any event Russia and China have their own agendas and would veto even the introduction of a no-fly zone.
In short, the West is s*****ed! I am afraid IMHO that it will get a lot worse for the people of Syria (on both sides) before the killing and destruction will stop.
MB
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,416
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is by now fairly obvious that, within 30 days of the final handover to Afghanistan's security forces of all responsibility for maintaining order, the Taliban will have taken control of the whole of the country as opposed to the large swathes of it they presently control. The cabal of corrupt and ineffectual politicians nominally in charge will either join them or run.
That fact should penetrate through to Messrs Cameron, Hague et al, even through the barriers surrounding the Westminster village they inhabit, so that they think twice about initiating a third badly-thought out, extremely costly, pointless and ultimately useless intervention, with the inevitable death toll, between different sects of Muslims.
But maybe it won't.
That fact should penetrate through to Messrs Cameron, Hague et al, even through the barriers surrounding the Westminster village they inhabit, so that they think twice about initiating a third badly-thought out, extremely costly, pointless and ultimately useless intervention, with the inevitable death toll, between different sects of Muslims.
But maybe it won't.
Last edited by Capot; 3rd Jul 2013 at 09:19.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
It is by now fairly obvious that, within 30 days of the final handover to Afghanistan's security forces of all responsibility for maintaining order, the Taliban will have taken control of the whole of the country as opposed to the large swathes of it they presently control.
Remember the Northern Alliance was at war with the Taliban government for many many years, and it was their forces, with Allied air and SF support who defeated them.
With the arms and expertise they've built up over the years I can see no way the Taliban would make any substantial inroads into their homelands in the north. The question would be if they ended up in an uneasy national alliance or another prolonged civil war.