INS Viraat / HMS Hermes still soldiering on
When Hermes was sold in 85, I'd be astonished if any design info pertinent to her previous catapult and arrester fit still existed, let alone was transferred!
As for the Chinese, there's an interesting article in Jane's Navy International from the end of May last year that stitches together how they got to where they are. It suggests that the ex- HMAS Melbourne was purchased for scrap and on arrival in China, the PLAN were invited by the scrapyard to have a gander, which was swiftly followed by an order to remove all useful items for further inspection and research.
Whether true or not, doesn't really matter. The principles of design and operation are known and in open source. After that it is just a question of engineering through the problem, which is a question of time and money. Where you tend to get held up is figuring out either the metallurgical tricks or the dynamic elements like hook skip. Access to the kit or elements of design info lowers that time or cost.
As for the Chinese, there's an interesting article in Jane's Navy International from the end of May last year that stitches together how they got to where they are. It suggests that the ex- HMAS Melbourne was purchased for scrap and on arrival in China, the PLAN were invited by the scrapyard to have a gander, which was swiftly followed by an order to remove all useful items for further inspection and research.
Whether true or not, doesn't really matter. The principles of design and operation are known and in open source. After that it is just a question of engineering through the problem, which is a question of time and money. Where you tend to get held up is figuring out either the metallurgical tricks or the dynamic elements like hook skip. Access to the kit or elements of design info lowers that time or cost.
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As usual my thanks for your explanation and it looks like the Melbourne saga might have some credibility. I am guessing when the Chinese bought that ship for scrap they were not interested in the huge amounts of asbestos that was used to clad all the 'hot bits'
Your reference to hook skip did not go unoticed
I am guessing the folks buying that ship for scrap were possibly the same people that purchased the Russian carrier for use as a casino?
Your reference to hook skip did not go unoticed
I am guessing the folks buying that ship for scrap were possibly the same people that purchased the Russian carrier for use as a casino?
The Indians have afforded that which the RN has been short of for many years - lots of sailors to do chipping, painting and general upkeep. People can be relatively cheap in India.
They also have a widespread capability to keep making things that have not been made eleswhere for years and to near-enough copy anything they want if it's low- moderate tech engineering skill you are after. The cost of support for a "simple" ship like Viraat will be pretty low in India compared with trying to do it in Europe or the States.
Hermes was also built pretty heavily and the design dates from WW2 incorporating early Far East experience with kamikaze attacks -- the deep beams below the roof needed to support the armoured deck and the armoured box round the machinery spaces have to be seen to be believed. There will be plenty of steel to stand a bit of corrosion. The boilers will be different but Admiralty 3-drum boilers are pretty simple and it's easy to copy any bits needing renewal.
That is not to belittle their high-tech skills either, but those are less widespread and not much needed for the ship.
N
They also have a widespread capability to keep making things that have not been made eleswhere for years and to near-enough copy anything they want if it's low- moderate tech engineering skill you are after. The cost of support for a "simple" ship like Viraat will be pretty low in India compared with trying to do it in Europe or the States.
Hermes was also built pretty heavily and the design dates from WW2 incorporating early Far East experience with kamikaze attacks -- the deep beams below the roof needed to support the armoured deck and the armoured box round the machinery spaces have to be seen to be believed. There will be plenty of steel to stand a bit of corrosion. The boilers will be different but Admiralty 3-drum boilers are pretty simple and it's easy to copy any bits needing renewal.
That is not to belittle their high-tech skills either, but those are less widespread and not much needed for the ship.
N
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Glojo...
The catapults and arresting gear had been removed from Hermes when she was converted to a commando carrier at Devenport Dockyard 1 March 1971 to 18 Aug 1973, and in 1978 that bloody great ski jump was built over where the catapults used to be!
She was sold to India in 1986, and delivered in 1987.
Vikrant DID have a steam catapult and arresting gear when completed for, and sold to, India in 1961... and the Indian Navy used them until they fitted a ski jump to her in 1989.
So India did have a set of arresting gear and 1 BS4 steam catapult, as well as at least the maintenance & repair info for them.
The catapults and arresting gear had been removed from Hermes when she was converted to a commando carrier at Devenport Dockyard 1 March 1971 to 18 Aug 1973, and in 1978 that bloody great ski jump was built over where the catapults used to be!
She was sold to India in 1986, and delivered in 1987.
Vikrant DID have a steam catapult and arresting gear when completed for, and sold to, India in 1961... and the Indian Navy used them until they fitted a ski jump to her in 1989.
So India did have a set of arresting gear and 1 BS4 steam catapult, as well as at least the maintenance & repair info for them.
Last edited by GreenKnight121; 13th Mar 2013 at 15:26.
Yes, the former HMAS Melbourne was sold for scrap and towed to China. It was tied up for well over a year in China before being broken up. Shortly thereafter there was a deck outline on one of their naval airfields (?) identical in size and dimension to the ship.
When Hermes was sold in 85,
I do know that the Indians ran rings round us. In the final days it was announced that the agreement meant everything on board at 1200 on the handover day was deemed to belong to the Indians, and it had to be serviceable. The inventory was circulated in the FAA at the last minute and we had to resort to making sure they didn't get the Secret stuff as there was no time to assess everything. A few months later, they had the gall to send kit back claiming it didn't work, and we were liable for repair costs. It turned out it did work, it was just at a standard the Indians weren't allowed, so they didn't recognise it for what it was. (SHAR avionics). We had to de-mod it and return it, which left SHARs short.
The Indian brass were wined and dined at Culdrose. The Ward Room put on an impressive array of fodder. One gold-endowed gentleman was heard to say "******* curry, I wanted fish and chips."
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Story variations on a theme about former aircraft carrier HMAS Melbourne in China:
Bensted Home Pages: HMAS Melbourne after Decommissioning
"...In February 1985, Melbourne was sold to China for breaking up, and arrived at a Shanghai yard in 1985 according to the issue of Far Eastern Economic Review dated 20th. October, 1994, where she lay undisturbed except for regular visits by PLA engineers and may still be in existence (1994). It is clear from an article entitled "The Aviation Dream of the Chinese People" that appeared in the July, 1994 issue of Shidian, a semi-official magazine of the China News Service, that PLA(N) officers are being trained in large ship handling courses and flight deck operations.
Melbourne was finally moved to the northern port city of Dalian where she was broken up. There have been several reports of the Chinese reconfiguring a runway to resemble an aircraft carrier deck for flight deck landing training by PLA pilots. Additionally, in 1987 an F-8 Chinese fighter was launched from a steam catapult at the Lushun naval air base near Dalian according to the Far Eastern Economic Review.
A US private sector intelligence agency believes that the Chinese Navy may be using an old aircraft carrier, HMAS Melbourne, to help develop its own carrier and boost Chinese military capability. Stratfor (Strategic Forecasting) based in Austin, Texas, said the Peoples Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) had acquired three different types of carrier to study for development of their own capability. One of them was the HMAS Melbourne.
On 13 January 2001, the online Australian magazine in Melbourne "The Age.com.au", indicated that China has been using the flight deck of the former Australian aircraft carrier HMAS Melbourne to train its pilots ahead of the launch of its first locally-made aircraft carrier. Quoting unnamed sources, the Hong Kong based independent Chinese language Ming Pao daily reported that the Chinese 4.8 billion yuan ($A892 million) aircraft carrier is slated to be in the water in 2003, although it will take another two years to have it fully ready for service. There is Satellite imagery of the reconstructed Melbourne flight deck attached to the end of a runway in northern China. The angled flight deck centerline is aligned with the main runway and aircraft were catapulted out over the salt pan and bay. Although this claim was made in 2001,..."
Bensted Home Pages: HMAS Melbourne after Decommissioning
"...In February 1985, Melbourne was sold to China for breaking up, and arrived at a Shanghai yard in 1985 according to the issue of Far Eastern Economic Review dated 20th. October, 1994, where she lay undisturbed except for regular visits by PLA engineers and may still be in existence (1994). It is clear from an article entitled "The Aviation Dream of the Chinese People" that appeared in the July, 1994 issue of Shidian, a semi-official magazine of the China News Service, that PLA(N) officers are being trained in large ship handling courses and flight deck operations.
Melbourne was finally moved to the northern port city of Dalian where she was broken up. There have been several reports of the Chinese reconfiguring a runway to resemble an aircraft carrier deck for flight deck landing training by PLA pilots. Additionally, in 1987 an F-8 Chinese fighter was launched from a steam catapult at the Lushun naval air base near Dalian according to the Far Eastern Economic Review.
A US private sector intelligence agency believes that the Chinese Navy may be using an old aircraft carrier, HMAS Melbourne, to help develop its own carrier and boost Chinese military capability. Stratfor (Strategic Forecasting) based in Austin, Texas, said the Peoples Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) had acquired three different types of carrier to study for development of their own capability. One of them was the HMAS Melbourne.
On 13 January 2001, the online Australian magazine in Melbourne "The Age.com.au", indicated that China has been using the flight deck of the former Australian aircraft carrier HMAS Melbourne to train its pilots ahead of the launch of its first locally-made aircraft carrier. Quoting unnamed sources, the Hong Kong based independent Chinese language Ming Pao daily reported that the Chinese 4.8 billion yuan ($A892 million) aircraft carrier is slated to be in the water in 2003, although it will take another two years to have it fully ready for service. There is Satellite imagery of the reconstructed Melbourne flight deck attached to the end of a runway in northern China. The angled flight deck centerline is aligned with the main runway and aircraft were catapulted out over the salt pan and bay. Although this claim was made in 2001,..."
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This photo (with extra text excerpt below) used to be on the old version of the 'dialabull' page. Anyhoo...
Bensted Home Pages: HMAS Melbourne after Decommissioning
“...(Satellite image of the reconstructed Melbourne flight deck attached to the end of a runway in northern China. The angled flight deck centerline is aligned with the main runway and aircraft were catapulted out over the salt pan and bay)...”
Bensted Home Pages: HMAS Melbourne after Decommissioning
“...(Satellite image of the reconstructed Melbourne flight deck attached to the end of a runway in northern China. The angled flight deck centerline is aligned with the main runway and aircraft were catapulted out over the salt pan and bay)...”
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 13th Mar 2013 at 20:55. Reason: text addition
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Would we have removed all of the catapult systems and more to the point when we sold hermes to the Indian Navy would we hand over all the drawings, paper work etc regarding her previous fitment of cats and traps?
I believe China purchased an Australian carrier just to get access to this design information but that might just be an old sea story that I have been told.
I believe China purchased an Australian carrier just to get access to this design information but that might just be an old sea story that I have been told.
BBC News - China lands J-15 jet on Liaoning aircraft carrier
India is building 2-3 new aircraft carriers, but it is going slowly.
Work on aircraft carrier to restart by month-end - The Hindu
India also bought a former Russian carrier, just like China, the INS Vikramaditya, formerly Admiral Gorshkov. The Russians have been refitting it and training the Indian Navy prior to its handover. Including flight lessons on 2 seater mig 29Ks. The ship seems to have had engine trouble so the entry into service has been delayed..
Last edited by keesje; 14th Mar 2013 at 11:17.
