250,000 veterans of Arctic convoys and Bomber Command to be honoured

[Pontius Navigator]

It would be a nice gesture if the National Lottery Fund would offer to pay for remounting the extra medals along the lines of their Heroes' Return campaigns that they have run in the past.

There must be many amongst survivors and spouses that could ill afford to pay for remounting. NOK, on the whole, could probably afford the cost.

I know my MiL can ill afford the money to get her husband's medals cleaned and remounted and to purchase a new miniature. She will do it however come what may. She is far too proud to expect her children to contribute even though they would be willing.

[Pontius Navigator]

Originally Posted by Tankertrashnav

are we going to award the unsung heroes of Coastal Command a clasp to their Atlantic Stars?

. . . My point is, once you start singling out one or two groups for special treatment, where do you stop?

And not just the other Commands, in today's paper is a letter bemoaning the fact that as a National Serviceman he has to buy his own medal.

Can we have a QRA Medal please?

Sycamore, unless you were referring to the bit I already deleted, I was being ironic and referring to the man who wanted a national service medal. I was not suggesting seriously a medal for QRA etc.

PS,

I am a little disappointed that my suggestion that veterans be given funding to have their medals properly mounted has not had comment. As TTN shows, the medal may well be ranked higher than the France and Germany etc.

[sycamore]

PN,I would hope you would do the honourable.......out of respect..

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I interviewed my butcher as a schoolboy for a history project on the convoys. He had served on PQ17, amongst others. I was told years later after he died that he'd never spoken about it before or since, so I felt very privileged.
I do wonder how the suits at the MoD can live with themselves - deliberately waiting until enough are dead that the cost of the recognition, for this and many other similar cases, just fits the discretionary budget for the year. That's clearly what motivates them.

[November4]

Application forms completed for my late grandfather RN (Arctic Convoy - survived) and father's uncle (10 Sqn KIA)

May have missed it but where does the Arctic Convoy medal go in the order of the other campaign medals? My grandfather was awarded the 39-45, Atlantic, Africa and Burma Stars. I assume it is worn in order of being earned so in his case it would be after the Africa Star - awarded for Malta Convoys and service in the Med.

[Tankertrashnav]

WW2 stars have a set order of wear, irrespective of the chronological order of when they were won. Thus it would be possible for a Wellington Air Gunner, for example, to qualify for the Africa Star, then return to the UK and qualify for the Aircrew Europe Star. In spite of this, he would wear the Aircrew Europe Star first. No doubt there will be a statement about the new correct order of wear in due course, but I havent seen it yet

Correct order of wear at present is:

1939-45 Star
Atlantic Star
Aircrew Europe Star
Africa Star
Pacific Star
Burma Star
Italy Star
France and Germany Star

All this bearing in mind the Atlantic, Aircrew Europe and France & Germany Stars, and the Pacific and Burma Stars are mutually exclusive, ie only one each from the three/pair would be awarded. Where the Arctic Star will "slot in" I'm not sure, but after the Atlantic Star would seem logical. Another consequence of this new award will be that the maximum number of WW2 stars which may be worn will increase from 5 to 6. It will be interesting to see examples of 6 Star groups as and when they turn up.

[November4]

Thanks TTN - I didn't realise there was a set order to the wearing of the medals.

[Q-RTF-X]

My late father, prior to WWII, was articled to train as a ships officer in the merchant marine; he became disenchanted during the shipping slump of the 30’s after some time tied up alongside a wharf as part of the care and maintenance team and was allowed to break his articles. After holding for some time as an ambulance driver he joined the Cheshire Constabulary as a police officer. On outbreak of war in 1939 the police force was declared a reserved occupation and volunteering for military service was simply not an option. However, in 1942 (I believe) the attrition rate among aircrew was such that police officers were given dispensation to volunteer to serve in the RAF as aircrew; an option taken up by my father who was enlisted as a trainee air gunner. Ultimately he served as a rear gunner with 166 squadron basedat Kirmington flying in Lancaster’s. I believe he completed around 20 or so operational flights including a couple to Peenemunde. On demob he returned to the police force then was seconded to the Control Commission in Germany before being medically released due to a heart condition. Fast track to 1957 when I was a keen and green ATC cadet and I managed to persuade my father to join the squadron as a badly needed civilian instructor on the .303 browning gun that was still (just) part of the ATC syllabus. I left the ATC early 1958 to join the RAF as a Boy Entrant by which time father was the civilian Adjutant, later becoming commissioned and ultimately elevated to squadron commander. He was highly regarded throughout Cheshire Wing up to his retirement from the RAF VR (T). Why am I relating all this ? I am simply painting a picture of but one of thousands of relatively simple individuals who “did their bit” in WWII; he was quietly, and mostly silently, proud of his contribution. He would certainly have appreciated the completion of the Bomber Command Memorial, though the award of the Bomber Command Clasp would most likely have been met by a snort and a chuckle and perhaps a muttered something along the lines of “as it’s taken this long one wonders if there is any real value behind it ?” I’m sure many others would have shared similar thoughts.

All that being said, there will be a remaining few no doubt who would appreciate receiving the clasp; there will not be many by now and I was wondering if perhaps it were possible for some sort of ground swell to be cultivated whereby those individuals might receive their award with as much pomp and dignity as can be mustered; enlisting currently serving station commanders to make a presentation at their base is one possible option that comes to mind. I would gladly offer my time to help but I am resident too far away to be of much use and see little prospect of making the journey again. Any ideas from those of you better placed ?

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN,

Looking at the medal order that you listed, it appears to be in the order that campaigns started.

Clearly the first was 3 Sep 1939 followed almost immediately by the Atlantic. Was there a medal for the initial European phase with the BEF? Aircrew Europe would appear to be the next with the campaign in North Africa next.

The Pacific war would be from 7 Dec 1941 with the theatre extending to Burma after that.

Italy would be 1943 and the France and Germany star 1944?

If my logic is correct then the Arctic Star should follow the Africa Star and precede the Pacific Star.

[Pontius Navigator]

Originally Posted by Q-RTF-X

All that being said, there will be a remaining few no doubt who would appreciate receiving the clasp; there will not be many by now and I was wondering if perhaps it were possible for some sort of ground swell to be cultivated whereby those individuals might receive their award with as much pomp and dignity as can be mustered;

Good idea.

Considering only the Arctic Star, have a look here:

Victory Day celebrated in Britain for last year.

On 9 May at 10.45 flowers will be laid at the Soviet War Memorial near the Imperial War Museum in London, followed by the talk “Diplomat at war” at IWM (Diplomat at War | Imperial War Museums). There will also be an invitation-only reception for the veterans of the Arctic Convoys aboard HMS Belfast and, from 18.30, a free gala concert of Russian and British bands at Hay’s Galleria.

I know my MiL would have been welcomed at the Service. I believe there will be another ceremony this May; I think it coincides with the RAF Service at Runymede which is a shame.

It would be a fitting occasion to present the Arctic Stars or at other similar events.

[Chugalug2]

TTN:-

I repeat my question made above: now these guys have had their extra medals, who next?

I would expect the answer to be no one, but time will tell. I bow to your expertise in the matter of medals, TTN, but from the point of view of this layman I would say that the Bomber Command clasp is the cost of getting it wrong in the first place! Coastal Command aircrew got the Atlantic Star because that reflected the Campaign that they so heroically fought, ie the Battle of the Atlantic. That simple relationship of medal awarded to Campaign fought was denied the Bomber Crews. Why that was looks suspiciously like deliberate denial of the justification of the Bombing Campaign from this distance, but whatever the reason that denial had rankled ever since. So if it offends the purists I can only suggest that the apparatchiks, that turned their backs on the Bomber Boys in 1946 and thereafter, are to blame and who should be the targets of any ire felt. My only quibble would be that the Clasp would have better read the Battle of Germany (the title that Harris gave to the Bombing Campaign flown against Germany) rather than Bomber Command which wrongly implies that service alone in that particular RAF Command results in the award of a clasp. It doesn't!
Hugh Spencer, wonderful to see your post on this thread and to see at last a Bomber Command Memorial and this Bomber Command clasp become a reality. Your contributions to that PPRuNe campaign gave it a vital moral authority. It is for us to thank you, Sir!

[Toddington Ted]

"How many of these men are still alive?"
Getting fewer by the day no doubt.
I am fortunate in that at least I have been able to write off to the Medal Office to obtain the Arctic Star for my Dad, who is still alive but not in good health now. Being an ex-Royal Marine (albeit Bandsman rather than Commando) he is fiercely independent and still likes to do things for himself! I feel honoured that I can at least fill in the form for him. He still has his record of service so that should speed things up a bit.
He served on HMS Howe during 1942-43 and the ship's operations included several Arctic convoys. My father always remembers the stern demeanour of the visiting Soviet personnel when they visited the Howe. HMS Howe was a new ship but absolutely infested with rats, according to Dad. He much preferred his previous ship, the Cruiser HMS Orion. From the military aviation aspect, Orion carried a Fairey Seafox spotter floatplane, the pilot was a Royal Marine Officer he recalls.

[Pontius Navigator]

Ted, well done. We posted an app today for a widow too. I see that some medals have already been minted so they obviously got the orders in well before the official announcement.

Good thinking as they should be able to meet demand immediately rather than a long wait while they got their act together.

[Davef68]

My mum has filled in the form as Next of Kin of my late grandfather (who would have been 117 if he was still alive!) for his Arctic Service in the Merchant Navy - it will be nice to see it alongside his WW1 (Army) and other WW2 medals.

We don't know if her brother served on an Arctic convoy - he was an MN apprentice who was lost at sea, age 17, and is on the Tower Hill Memorial. Does anyone know if it's possible to find these things out? (Sorry for the non-Mil Av content)

[Pontius Navigator]

Davef, yes, the route is fairly straight forward.

Start with the date he was lost. If that is in the same period as the Arctic Convoys you have a possible. Next you need to find out on which ships he was articled. If you have sufficient information such as his MN number, dob etc, you can probably get a copy of his record from Halifax, Nova Scotia (I don't have the address by you can use Google to find MN records depositories).

Finally, compare his ships with those that were on the convoys, Google again.

[November4]

Is there any official notification on the order of wearing the Arctic medal yet? I have had a look and can only find ref to this on that "authoritative" source Wiki which indicates that this medal is to be worn after the other Stars.

This doesn't fit in with the current Stars as they are worn in campaign order. The qualifying date for the Arctic medal is from 3 Sept 39 so should it not fit in after the 1939-45, Atlantic and Aircrew Europe Stars?

[Pontius Navigator]

I suggest you contact Worcestershire Medals. They will give expert advice. I had my grandfather's medals remounted. He had been quite specific (but wrong) on the order. WM mounted them in the correct sequence.

When you find out please repost here.

[Tankertrashnav]

november 4 and P-N. I had to contact Worcester Medals on another matter this morning so I asked them the question. The answer is that The Arctic Star goes immediately after the Atlantic Star (which is logical). They have already had a couple in for mounting, which is quick.

The situation with the issue of the medals is that the Royal Mint made a small batch for immediate issue to convoy survivors, as opposed to next of kin. The company told me there is now a tender procedure among medal manufacturers for the next batch which will be to meet the claims of next of kin (presumably a larger number). They have tendered, but the result is not yet known. I hope the government doesnt go for the cheapest option, as there are some firms making truly awful replica medals - not, I hasten to add Worcester Medals, whose work I can thoroughly recommend (and no, I dont have any connection)!

[November4]

Thanks TTN and PN

That does make sense on the order of wearing. As you say, hope the cheapest option does not affect the quality.

I see that AwardMedals are taking orders for replicas.

[Tankertrashnav]

No problem Nov 4. As regards replicas, there will be nothing to stop anyone producing a replica for private purchase, but only the company which wins the contract will be able to manufacture the medals under licence for issue to those entitled. One hopes that these will be at least of the same quality as the original stars, which won't necessarily be the case with replicas.