Do you really know where Syrian Chemical Weapons are?
Thread Starter
Do you really know where Syrian Chemical Weapons are?
The Telegraph had an article that caught my eye this morning.
US and British plans to seize Syria's chemical weapons - Telegraph
The crux of the matter is that you have to know where they are to get at them, either to destroy, protect (leave in place under guard) or to confiscate.
Maybe now, but isn't that a bit of wishful thinking if the regime crumbles a bit more?
They too need to know where the stuff is, though they may get good inside info from defecting soldiers. This is a bit of a lottery.
If you actually know where they are, yes, and I hope any of our contributors who are still on active duty will hit what they aim at. Sincerely hope the targetting cell has good info to give you.
Easy to say, a bit of chaos to pull off. When it's a moving target, leakers would be the rule, not the exception I expect.
Short notice ... mix that with the need to know where the stuff is, or isn't, and this could be sporting.
All well and good, if your locating data is good.
Tokyo already having had its delightful day of a Sarin attack ... 
That's comforting.
Not sure how accurate this article is, but it seems to me to dodge the critical factor in any such scheme: do you really know where that stuff is?
US and British plans to seize Syria's chemical weapons - Telegraph
The crux of the matter is that you have to know where they are to get at them, either to destroy, protect (leave in place under guard) or to confiscate.
British intelligence believes that Syria has amassed an extensive arsenal of weapons of mass destruction (WMD), including nerve agents such as Sarin, and mustard gas. They have not been used and are considered to be well guarded by Syrian security forces.
But militant Islamist groups are inside Syria fighting against the government and would be perfectly placed to raid stockpiles, intelligence sources have said.
They said the most likely option to prevent the weapons falling into the hands of extremists would be to destroy stockpiles with air strikes.
Alternatives include the use of special forces and troops to secure weapon sites in Syria if the government collapses.
An RAF regiment unit called the Defence Chemical Biological Radiological and Nuclear Wing, based at Winterbourne Gunner, Wilts, has been told that it should be prepared to work alongside the SAS in securing such sites in Syria at short notice.
Last week, a US-based body known as the Strategic Working Group began rehearsing how stockpiles would be secured in the Middle East and the Pacific in the event of an international emergency.
MI5 has repeatedly warned that it is "only a matter of time" before extremist groups carry out a "chemical, biological or radiological attack" on a Western city.
British and US commanders agree that the West has paid "lip service" to training troops in WMD scenarios, focusing almost solely on counterinsurgency operations.
Not sure how accurate this article is, but it seems to me to dodge the critical factor in any such scheme: do you really know where that stuff is?
British and US commanders agree that the West has paid "lip service" to training troops in WMD scenarios
Last edited by Courtney Mil; 25th Feb 2013 at 17:36.
Thread Starter
Courtney, if I'm never rigged out in MOPP 4 again, it will be too soon. 
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Whoever made that statement clearly didn't spend years doing excercises in Europe during the Cold War. I came to love the inside on my NBC kit, colpro, entry/exit drills. I'm so indoctrinated that I still have a tray of Fuller's Earth inside my front door instead of a doormat.
I wonder if they're bringing Tony Blair out of retirement to tell them where they are?
Last edited by NutLoose; 25th Feb 2013 at 18:09.
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I came to love the inside on my NBC kit, colpro, entry/exit drills.
Luckily, as an auggie nurse, I'm now a little further up the pecking order for these things.
I'm so indoctrinated that I still have a tray of Fuller's Earth inside my front door instead of a doormat.
Blot, bang, rub my £$%&!!
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When I came out of the RAF I moved into a house near Bedford to find they were quarrying the damn stuff next door and all the hedge rows were full of it.
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I was never convinced that fullers and blot bang rub would have been all that effective actually...
I was shelter marshall at Binbrook during the 80's and looking at the sheets of plastic and bodge tape to protect us against sarin and/or a couple of megatons of USSRs finest I came to the conclusion that it was probably better to strip the lot off and stroll home to die with the wife and kids. Call me a realist if you must...
I was shelter marshall at Binbrook during the 80's and looking at the sheets of plastic and bodge tape to protect us against sarin and/or a couple of megatons of USSRs finest I came to the conclusion that it was probably better to strip the lot off and stroll home to die with the wife and kids. Call me a realist if you must...
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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Intelligence at the time said the Iraqi chemicals etc. were trucked over the Syrian border and hidden in caves in the Bekar Valley, so maybe the Syrians put theirs in there too? If you really want to know where they are just ask the Israelis.
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Originally Posted by Courtney Mil
Whoever made that statement clearly didn't spend years doing excercises in Europe during the Cold War. I came to love the inside on my NBC kit, colpro, entry/exit drills. I'm so indoctrinated that I still have a tray of Fuller's Earth inside my front door instead of a doormat.
And even then it was a losing battle in many parts of the military.
As a USMC Sgt in 1988 I was assigned "collateral duty" as a team leader (1 of 4) for MAG-11's NBC group... all but the 4-5 admin personnel were "part-timers" with full-time duties elsewhere in the Group.
Almost none of us had, or ever would, attend the 2-week NBC training course that regulations required 100% of us to have attended immediately upon assignment to the NBC teams.
As team leader for the monitor/survey section I tried like h&ll to get my 10 men (including myself) sent through the school... in 4+ months I only got 1 man sent (not me), and then they decided that a 2x1/2-day refresher course would suffice instead of the 2-week course.
When I went through basic training in 1981 everyone was required to remove our masks and repeat our name & SSN out loud while in the gas chamber filled with tear gas... guaranteeing we would get exposed. This had a very definite result that we took things seriously.
By the time I left active duty in 1989, we were getting new Marines who hadn't even been required to take off their mask when in the gas chamber in basic!
I shudder to think what things are like now.
Last edited by GreenKnight121; 26th Feb 2013 at 07:11.
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Survive to fight
I suspect that the whole NBC stance in the Cold war was really designed as a morale boosting exercise: realistically operating for any period of time in a contaminated environment would have been virtually impossible.
Even at sea with the relative advantages of unlimited quantities of washing down water and the ability to move away from clouds o agent etc, the logistics iof getting upper deck weapons crews and exposed boiler room personnel through the clensing station did not bear tooclose examination: a lot of folk weren't going to make it.
I am still surprisd tat we didn't keep canaries - the thought of managing to persuade one of my grumpy matelots to perform a "sniff test" to see if the air was OK seems laughable after a quarter of a Century.
Of course having any countermeasures in place means that an attack (or the threat of one) provides friction, but is not a devastation stopper to operations. CBRN is most effectiveagainst the unprotected - and the most effective thing of all is the effect f panic on unprotected civilian populations.
Even at sea with the relative advantages of unlimited quantities of washing down water and the ability to move away from clouds o agent etc, the logistics iof getting upper deck weapons crews and exposed boiler room personnel through the clensing station did not bear tooclose examination: a lot of folk weren't going to make it.
I am still surprisd tat we didn't keep canaries - the thought of managing to persuade one of my grumpy matelots to perform a "sniff test" to see if the air was OK seems laughable after a quarter of a Century.
Of course having any countermeasures in place means that an attack (or the threat of one) provides friction, but is not a devastation stopper to operations. CBRN is most effectiveagainst the unprotected - and the most effective thing of all is the effect f panic on unprotected civilian populations.
Green Knight
Cheer up Green Knight ! I see the Green Knights got one (the first ever) 'operational' sortie in at Yuma, before Friday's grounding. LFH
Last edited by Lordflasheart; 26th Feb 2013 at 09:15.
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Sweating in hot sunshine in full NBC kit with a clear plastic oversuit like a Tesco ready cooked chicken with a broom and a bucket of soapy water to decontaminate a jet returning I knew we had already lost, especially when I saw pictures of the Russian tank with the jet engine mounted on the top they were using to do the same job.
The other prime turkey in the "Survive to Fight" book was the if you see a Nuclear explosion, lie down facing it tucking any exposed skin in (as houses, trees, and the local vicinity passes harmlessly over head) then get up and carry on.
The other prime turkey in the "Survive to Fight" book was the if you see a Nuclear explosion, lie down facing it tucking any exposed skin in (as houses, trees, and the local vicinity passes harmlessly over head) then get up and carry on.
Last edited by NutLoose; 26th Feb 2013 at 09:28.
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Nutloose - Pass harmlessly over your head twice remember? Positive wave and negative wave. 
Sweating in hot sunshine in full NBC kit with a clear plastic oversuit like a Tesco ready cooked chicken with a broom and a bucket of soapy water to decontaminate a jet returning I knew we had already lost, especially when I saw pictures of the Russian tank with the jet engine mounted on the top they were using to do the same job.
The jet engine on an old tank was also handy for blasting unexploded JP233 bomblets and anti-personnel mines off sovietski runways. The boffins had assumed they'd use bulldozers.....
Thread Starter
Gentlemen, whilst this nostalgia is all well and good, the question to hand in this thread is the disposition of Syrian chemical weapons inventory.
Care to comment on that?
Care to comment on that?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I liked the 'cold, clammy skin' bit but they never explained how you did that when you were both clad in full S&M kit.
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Lonewolf
At the start of the "war" in Syria, some wrote an article in the US
newspapers saying the US was watching and ready to act with soldiers
if any chemical weapons stockpiles were looking at falling into
the hands of the rebels - and even hinted that the US might act
if the Syrian Gov't decided to move them or use them !!!
Just recently, another article appeared when the rebels came
close to one of the bases.
The hint I got from that was that the US had people ready to go
if they needed to take a storage base to stop it falling into the wrong
hands. It wouldn't surprise me that they have soldiers waiting for
this exact scenario.
And I do think the US knows exactly where they all are in Syria,
far more than they did in Libya or Iraq.
Anyone care to comment ?
At the start of the "war" in Syria, some wrote an article in the US
newspapers saying the US was watching and ready to act with soldiers
if any chemical weapons stockpiles were looking at falling into
the hands of the rebels - and even hinted that the US might act
if the Syrian Gov't decided to move them or use them !!!
Just recently, another article appeared when the rebels came
close to one of the bases.
The hint I got from that was that the US had people ready to go
if they needed to take a storage base to stop it falling into the wrong
hands. It wouldn't surprise me that they have soldiers waiting for
this exact scenario.
And I do think the US knows exactly where they all are in Syria,
far more than they did in Libya or Iraq.
Anyone care to comment ?