Typhoon vs..... Hercules?
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Typhoon vs..... Hercules?
Plain old tax payer here would just like to thank the aircrew in the Typhoon and the Herc over the Northumberland coastline (near Seahouses) this afternoon.
Great to see my tax dollars/pounds being spent in what looked like great fun and great show for all who stopped to watch.
Initially I thought, this will all be over pretty fast but the PIC in the Herc was throwing it around at low level like a Turcano - hope the crewmaster was well strapped in and had strong sealegs. BAe's finest was using a lot of thrust and some pretty wide turns to try to get on the Herc's tail. Put a couple of AIM9's on the Herc and I think he'd have had a fighting chance
Anyway - great show - thanks guys/girls.
Mac
Great to see my tax dollars/pounds being spent in what looked like great fun and great show for all who stopped to watch.
Initially I thought, this will all be over pretty fast but the PIC in the Herc was throwing it around at low level like a Turcano - hope the crewmaster was well strapped in and had strong sealegs. BAe's finest was using a lot of thrust and some pretty wide turns to try to get on the Herc's tail. Put a couple of AIM9's on the Herc and I think he'd have had a fighting chance
Anyway - great show - thanks guys/girls.
Mac
Was a pax in a Herc back in the 80's in a 1 vs 2 x F4 over Northern Scotland. Walking down the steps into the cargo hold whilst pulling 2.?G was quite sporty.
Took a loooooong time for the F4's to claim anything.
Surprised if the Tiffie didn't get relatively quick shots in but I guess it depends what weapons they were using.
Took a loooooong time for the F4's to claim anything.
Surprised if the Tiffie didn't get relatively quick shots in but I guess it depends what weapons they were using.
There is often a load of old tosh spoken about this and many heavy crews would like to say "they held their own"
Having spent some seriously fun time playing the Herc game in a non-radar jet it is easy to see why they might think this. The truth is that they would have soaked up radar shots from way out if facing anything so equipped and even against anything only carrying heaters they would have been toast if we'd really wanted to and been trying.
Having spent some seriously fun time playing the Herc game in a non-radar jet it is easy to see why they might think this. The truth is that they would have soaked up radar shots from way out if facing anything so equipped and even against anything only carrying heaters they would have been toast if we'd really wanted to and been trying.
MiG17 versus a C130 in 1958...
...it didn't work out very well for the 17 on board the Herc
http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_file...down_60528.pdf
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 25th Feb 2013 at 23:04.
Big a/c vs 2 fighters is a good training exercise for newbie fighter pilots. I once had the chance to view it from inside a Nimrod (Dairy Cream Sponge in hand). For the first couple of minutes, whilst the fighters weren't that co-ordinated, the combination of 13 guys looking out and some well-judged reversals kept the fighters off. The final exchange went something like:
"One level, 10 o'clock"
"One high, 5 o'clock. What do we do now Captain?"
"Captain to crew- now we die"
My favourite trick for heavies & helos involved coming in from the vertical. As long as you judged the energy right for pull ups and avoided tent-pegging in dives, it worked nicely.
"One level, 10 o'clock"
"One high, 5 o'clock. What do we do now Captain?"
"Captain to crew- now we die"
My favourite trick for heavies & helos involved coming in from the vertical. As long as you judged the energy right for pull ups and avoided tent-pegging in dives, it worked nicely.
Also, 1 Jun 82, our troubled mind-in-turmoil favourite SHAR pilot skillfully despatched a C130:
No.801 Squadron CAP (Lt. N. Ward and Lt. S. Thomas) destroy Argentine C-130 Hercules 93 km north of Pebble Island. Wards first AIM-l9 Sidewinder he fired fell short of the C-130, but the second started a fire between the port engines,* Ward then fired 240 rounds of 30mm, which broke the aircraft's wing of sending it crashing into the sea killing the 7* crew members. This particular C-130 is believed* to have been trying to repeat a bombing attempt made by another C-130 the previous day, when an Argentine C-130 made a bombing attack on a British tanker well north of the total exclusion zone. One bomb struck the ship, but bounced off to no effect.
To the best of my knowledge, the UK Herc vs FJ training for ordinary Sqn crews (as opposed to SF - don't know what they did, and if I did I wouldn't say here) started off post 82, for crews about to deploy to the Falklands for 4 months.
The concept was that the Herc would only be a target of opportunity, and if you could deny the fighter(s) a kill on the first or second pass, then their fuel state and higher priority mission would make then break off the engagement and you lived to fight another day.
The threat at the time was a very poor radar guided missile, especially against a target at low level, and IR missiles that weren't all aspect.
Very good fun at the time, but things have moved on....
...I should add that almost all the RAF fighter (F-4) crews I met at that time were very keen to pass on any help or tips that might help the Herc crew to survive - no doubt some naive concept that we were all on the same side. As I said earlier, things.....
The concept was that the Herc would only be a target of opportunity, and if you could deny the fighter(s) a kill on the first or second pass, then their fuel state and higher priority mission would make then break off the engagement and you lived to fight another day.
The threat at the time was a very poor radar guided missile, especially against a target at low level, and IR missiles that weren't all aspect.
Very good fun at the time, but things have moved on....
...I should add that almost all the RAF fighter (F-4) crews I met at that time were very keen to pass on any help or tips that might help the Herc crew to survive - no doubt some naive concept that we were all on the same side. As I said earlier, things.....
Last edited by Biggus; 26th Feb 2013 at 07:59.
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Didn't know this was such a "normal" exercise. I've seen lots of FJ on FJ action up here, over the North Sea at altitude then down to low level as"the enemy" heads for Otterburn. But this was the first time I'd seen FJ vs Herc.
Didn't see the lead in but from when I watched it the Herc was staying low and out turning the Typhoon who was going (obviously) a lot faster and taking wide vertical turns to try to get in the right position. From the range etc I'd guess this was for heat seeking lock on and not guns.
As I say great to watch and brought a smile to my face.
Didn't see the lead in but from when I watched it the Herc was staying low and out turning the Typhoon who was going (obviously) a lot faster and taking wide vertical turns to try to get in the right position. From the range etc I'd guess this was for heat seeking lock on and not guns.
As I say great to watch and brought a smile to my face.
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As Biggus says it was only intended to deny the fighter a quick kill in the hope that he would look elsewhere for his fun, I don't believe that any C130 pilot would seriously claim to be able to do anymore than that - bar room banter to wind-up the fighter jocks aside. A sophisticated fighter like Typhoon really ought to be able to make mincemeat of a heavy in a matter of seconds otherwise it wouldn't justify its price tag.
That said, having done a bit of fighter affil 'down south', the success of the attackers was rather variable, from limited (only one 'hit' is all it takes though....) to instant wipeout with no warning, a testimony to the skill of the individuals I felt at the time. They were professional fighter pilots though whereas we were truckies so the outcome should have been in no doubt.
Jolly fine sport though!
That said, having done a bit of fighter affil 'down south', the success of the attackers was rather variable, from limited (only one 'hit' is all it takes though....) to instant wipeout with no warning, a testimony to the skill of the individuals I felt at the time. They were professional fighter pilots though whereas we were truckies so the outcome should have been in no doubt.
Jolly fine sport though!
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Also, 1 Jun 82, our troubled mind-in-turmoil favourite SHAR pilot skillfully despatched a C130:
Go figure....
Part of the difficulty for the fighter pilot in despatching something slow like a Herc is that he doesn't want to get slow while he is potentially at risk himself. It would be straightforward enough for a Typhoon to slow down to 200kts and sit in behind taking leisurely gun shots, but he would be toast if another fighter turned up. The looping and turning you saw was doubtless resulting from the pilot's desire to keep some speed on, meaning that he had to keep re-setting for shots.
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Easy Street
Thanks for that - matches exactly what I was watching. The Typhoon was keeping up a lot of kinetic energy and staying low as little as possible. The Herc looked like he was trying to anticipate the Typhoon's wider turns and using his higher rate of turn to give as poor an angle as possible to the FJ as he came out of the turn.
Thanks for that - matches exactly what I was watching. The Typhoon was keeping up a lot of kinetic energy and staying low as little as possible. The Herc looked like he was trying to anticipate the Typhoon's wider turns and using his higher rate of turn to give as poor an angle as possible to the FJ as he came out of the turn.
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Lets not forget also, from he C130s end, the fight is being directed ( mostly) by the hairy little Baldrick up in the cupola. FI work up was max of 3 days training against the F4s at Wattisham.
Trying to turn with a C-130 would be a mug's game. Although if you're stuck under a low cloudbase, you might be forced to have to try.
But with a decent cloudbase, the 'great leonopteryx' last-shadow technique should work....
Minimise visual aspect and swoop down suddenly from a great height...
But with a decent cloudbase, the 'great leonopteryx' last-shadow technique should work....
Minimise visual aspect and swoop down suddenly from a great height...