Suez...what if
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Suez...what if
What if Ike had okayed the Anglo/French/Israeli spat with the Egyptians over the "Nationalisation" of the Suez Canal, Where would we .... AND the Middle East be now, I wonder?
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Israel would control Sinai and the Egyptians would be revolting
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Without the benefit of reading the alternative history, I would say probably not a lot.
It was only the Canal Zone and not Egypt that was the objective. There would have been a massive and continuing drain on resources. We would have pulled out of the Far East much earlier, and then ME would be where it is now.
Really Suez was a minor skirmish.
It was only the Canal Zone and not Egypt that was the objective. There would have been a massive and continuing drain on resources. We would have pulled out of the Far East much earlier, and then ME would be where it is now.
Really Suez was a minor skirmish.
Milo, they are revolting now, more or less. 
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Another bloody little "police exercise" with National Service squaddies being killed every other day by patriots - look at Cyrprus or Aden for the likely result
Sure as hell it would have made our reputation stink through the world - as it was we were just written of as incompetent
Sure as hell it would have made our reputation stink through the world - as it was we were just written of as incompetent
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
You might also ask Vietnam, what if?
At least with Kuwait we restored the status quo antebellum and in Malaya and Malaysia we managed to sustain the status quo. In Grenada the US also managed to restore the status quo as indeed we did in Belize and the Falklands.
The difference might be whether the indigenous peoples are both friendly and remain friendly.
At least with Kuwait we restored the status quo antebellum and in Malaya and Malaysia we managed to sustain the status quo. In Grenada the US also managed to restore the status quo as indeed we did in Belize and the Falklands.
The difference might be whether the indigenous peoples are both friendly and remain friendly.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 27th Feb 2013 at 17:44. Reason: sp: vobis gratias
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It's instructive to look at why the UK pulled out of the Suez base in 1954; the base was essentially indefensible, and the thousands of troops were subject to continuous hit and run attacks, as well as problems with fresh water. This led to the withdrawal, with the base passing to Egyptian "civilian contractors" who placed it into care and maintenance (... with the same level of care and maintenance as the RAF would understand...)
This was the real answer to Mountbatten's initial post-nationalisation solution of sending a full Commando attack on the canal (which even Mountbatten conceded would take a maximum of two-thirds of the Canal in the initial attack) - the issue wasn't taking the Canal, it was how you hung on to it (presumably for years) whilst being under constant attack from Egyptian irregulars, whilst shipping in water from Cyprus (for an 80k man garrison).
The only hope was that the humiliation of defeat would cause Nasser to be overthrown - but the problem was that this would almost certainly have resulted in a more militant regime, making the problem worse. Even Eden had worked out that recolonising Egypt was a non-starter.
So there were no good options in '56. But Eden managed to make it much, much worse than any of the options.
S41
This was the real answer to Mountbatten's initial post-nationalisation solution of sending a full Commando attack on the canal (which even Mountbatten conceded would take a maximum of two-thirds of the Canal in the initial attack) - the issue wasn't taking the Canal, it was how you hung on to it (presumably for years) whilst being under constant attack from Egyptian irregulars, whilst shipping in water from Cyprus (for an 80k man garrison).
The only hope was that the humiliation of defeat would cause Nasser to be overthrown - but the problem was that this would almost certainly have resulted in a more militant regime, making the problem worse. Even Eden had worked out that recolonising Egypt was a non-starter.
So there were no good options in '56. But Eden managed to make it much, much worse than any of the options.
S41
I just found something sent to me back in 2011, when Egypt was all aglow over giving Mubarak the elbow.
============================================
A 14 year old boy got a horse on his birthday.
Everybody in the village syas, "How wonderful! The boy got a horse"
The Zen master says, "We'll see."
Two years later, the boy falls off the horse, breaks his leg.
Everyone in the village says, "How terrible."
The Zen master says, "We'll see."
A war breaks out and all the young men in the village have to go off and fight... except the boy, who can't be in the army because his leg's all messed up.
Everybody in the village says, "How wonderful."
The Zen master says, "We'll see."
Breaking news about the protests in Egypt covered by global media.
"The Egyptians will soon be enjoying the Freedom that US citizens love so much."
Everybody at the UN says "How wonderful."
The Zen master says, "We'll see."
============================================
The Suez for the moment is reasonably secure.
Will it remain so?
I remember it being closed for about six years after the 1967 war. Or was that after the 1973 war? Memory fuzzy.
============================================
A 14 year old boy got a horse on his birthday.
Everybody in the village syas, "How wonderful! The boy got a horse"
The Zen master says, "We'll see."
Two years later, the boy falls off the horse, breaks his leg.
Everyone in the village says, "How terrible."
The Zen master says, "We'll see."
A war breaks out and all the young men in the village have to go off and fight... except the boy, who can't be in the army because his leg's all messed up.
Everybody in the village says, "How wonderful."
The Zen master says, "We'll see."
Breaking news about the protests in Egypt covered by global media.
"The Egyptians will soon be enjoying the Freedom that US citizens love so much."
Everybody at the UN says "How wonderful."
The Zen master says, "We'll see."
============================================
The Suez for the moment is reasonably secure.
Will it remain so?
I remember it being closed for about six years after the 1967 war. Or was that after the 1973 war? Memory fuzzy.
It was '67, as I had to travel back OZ-UK via Panama in '68 as a consequence (having travelled via Suez in '66).
.
.
Last edited by Fox3WheresMyBanana; 27th Feb 2013 at 16:06.
PN I think it is antebellum ....... before, not against ...... war?
I remember the Suez humiliation well, my father had guarded the canal and shipping with his barrage balloon for 3 years in the war and was as livid about the incompetence as that gentle man could get.
I remember the Suez humiliation well, my father had guarded the canal and shipping with his barrage balloon for 3 years in the war and was as livid about the incompetence as that gentle man could get.
Did a little checking, the closure was 1967 through about 1975. As you say, after the 1967 war.
I recall from my childhood seeing news coverage of the ships that were stuck in the canal.
I had no recollection that the ships stuck in there were called the yellow fleet, but there ya go, a bit of Google sorted that out for me.
I recall from my childhood seeing news coverage of the ships that were stuck in the canal.
I had no recollection that the ships stuck in there were called the yellow fleet, but there ya go, a bit of Google sorted that out for me.
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Ike not re-elected
No run on the pound
Britain-Israel relationship strengthened
Western solidarity demonstrated and Soviet posture modified accordingly.
Growth of Soviet influence in mid East does not occur
Nasser and his ilk never achieve rise to power
PLO growth and subsequent terrorist activities heavily curtailed
Growth of Franco German nuclear weaponry not required as USA continues as unshakeable ally rather than being seen as willing to trade off key Western allies for short term politics
UK goes into Vietnam rather than abstaining as revenge (assuming Vietnam happens)
No run on the pound
Britain-Israel relationship strengthened
Western solidarity demonstrated and Soviet posture modified accordingly.
Growth of Soviet influence in mid East does not occur
Nasser and his ilk never achieve rise to power
PLO growth and subsequent terrorist activities heavily curtailed
Growth of Franco German nuclear weaponry not required as USA continues as unshakeable ally rather than being seen as willing to trade off key Western allies for short term politics
UK goes into Vietnam rather than abstaining as revenge (assuming Vietnam happens)
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Growth of Franco German nuclear weaponry not required
USA continues as unshakeable ally rather than being seen as willing to trade off key Western allies for short term politics
UK goes into Vietnam rather than abstaining as revenge (assuming Vietnam happens)
Err, something about 'unshakeable?' No irony there.
Or a nation deciding that its national interests didn't lie in Vietnam.
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Nasser and his ilk never achieve rise to power
Gamal Abdel Nasser Hussein was Prime Minister of Egypt from 25 February 1954 – 8 March 1954 & 18 April 1954 – 29 September 1962... and the second President of Egypt from 23 June 1956* until his death in 1970. A colonel in the Egyptian army, Nasser led the Egyptian Revolution of 1952 along with Muhammad Naguib, the first president, which overthrew the monarchy of Egypt and Sudan.
* Note that Naguib had been under military arrest from October 1955 until his removal in January 1955. Nasser was appointed "President pending an election"... the "official" 23 June 1956 date is merely when he was sworn in after winning the election. Nasser had been President in fact, as well as PM, since January 1955.
On 26 July 1956 Nasser ordered the nationalization of the Suez Canal, and the British/French invasion of the Canal commenced on 31 October 1956.
By his standing up to Britain and France, no matter the outcome, Nasser was enthroned as leader of the "independent Arab Nations" movement.
Last edited by GreenKnight121; 28th Feb 2013 at 19:10.
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Would the main difference between the Malayan Emergency and the Vietnam war be the attitude of the locals? Of coarse the Americans fought the war in a different way to the Brits and commonwealth troops did in Malaya. Friendly Malays helping out instead of helping the enemy.
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The SEATO zone boundary was 105 degrees East. We were already engaged in Malaysia
But you won, so there's the difference.
My point was, the UK decided, for its own national interests, to not participate in Vietnam.
Which is how the game is played and to assume otherwise is even more whimsical than this thread.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Dat and Brick,
You are confusing the Malayan Emergency with the Indonesian Confrontation. One was coincident with the French Indochina conflict and that latter with the Vietnam war.
There were parallels between the Malayan Emergency and the Vietnam war as both countries - Malaya and South Vietnam - were in conflict with the Chicom and the Vietcong. We helped the one and you helped the other,
You are confusing the Malayan Emergency with the Indonesian Confrontation. One was coincident with the French Indochina conflict and that latter with the Vietnam war.
There were parallels between the Malayan Emergency and the Vietnam war as both countries - Malaya and South Vietnam - were in conflict with the Chicom and the Vietcong. We helped the one and you helped the other,
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I get a pass on not knowing (ancient) geography.
I'm American...
And yes, you are correct. I botched the two - Malaya and Malaysia and stand sheepishly corrected. The latter was Sukarno and P-51s/DC-3s and the like vs. RAF Javelins and the like, no?
I'm American...
And yes, you are correct. I botched the two - Malaya and Malaysia and stand sheepishly corrected. The latter was Sukarno and P-51s/DC-3s and the like vs. RAF Javelins and the like, no?