VC10 - The truth
now Concorde is grounded it's the fastest passenger aircraft in the world"
Cessna Citation X - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I recall a Mil Funbus driver telling me (early 2000's) that the RAF limited the cruise to 0.84 (IIRC) in order to preserve airframe fatigue life, I think.
He also said that if I saw the Mach-meter reading higher than that whilst visiting the cockpit, that I was "seeing things"
He also said that if I saw the Mach-meter reading higher than that whilst visiting the cockpit, that I was "seeing things"
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IIRC it was the bottom right cb's on the Eng's panel to 'rig for silent running' or so I was told 
never saw them used pre SFI.....
Or was it cb's 70+71? Or were they for slat isolation?
Thank god for ECAM!
never saw them used pre SFI.....Or was it cb's 70+71? Or were they for slat isolation?
Thank god for ECAM!
At the risk of disturbing playtime, VC10 MNE was M0.94; in latter times indicated MMO was reduced from M0.886 to M0.866 under an SFI. However, air test captains were authorised to conduct high IMN checks on specific post-maintenance flight tests. We accelerated from M0.84 to M0.88 indicated at FL350, then flew a gentle descent to reach an IMN of M0.91, noting speed horn warning operation and handling qualities. We checked for neutral longitudinal stability and slight buffet during recovery. Recovery was effected with speedbrakes extended to the baulk, which caused a nose-up pitching moment. Then after regaining FL350, we carried out an emergency descent at an indicated M0.88 / 315 KIAS with speedbrakes to the baulk down to FL200. This was followed by a high IAS run to 360KIAS, some 50KIAS above the reduced VMO introduced in later years.
I’ve certainly flown pond crossings in the VC10K at an IMN of M0.88 before the limit was reduced – no great problem but the fuel burn was huge! Compared to the normal VC10K cruising IMN of M0.82, it only saved 5 minutes every hour and a half and more time could be saved with a few direct routeings and a visual approach on RW08 if the wind was within limits, rather than an instrument approach on RW26. Before the wretched micro-manager stuck his unwelcome nose into the VC10 training syllabus, we used to do a Brize-Keflavik-Brize trip (in the same day, so no T&S bill) and the co-pilot would fly the return leg at FL410 and M0.88 indicated, before the SFI was introduced – it was probably the highest and fastest they had ever flown or would be likely to again.
'Silent running' would have meant cruising above the speed horn limit; totally pointless really*, but something which a VIP crew might need to ensure that the PM or whoever arrived at the correct 'doors time'
. The Russians had an easier way - if a VIP was going to be late at Moscow, they just stopped the airport clock at the correct time...
*Unless, of course, there was a danger of missing the 1200-1400 local time lunch 'ching'......
I’ve certainly flown pond crossings in the VC10K at an IMN of M0.88 before the limit was reduced – no great problem but the fuel burn was huge! Compared to the normal VC10K cruising IMN of M0.82, it only saved 5 minutes every hour and a half and more time could be saved with a few direct routeings and a visual approach on RW08 if the wind was within limits, rather than an instrument approach on RW26. Before the wretched micro-manager stuck his unwelcome nose into the VC10 training syllabus, we used to do a Brize-Keflavik-Brize trip (in the same day, so no T&S bill) and the co-pilot would fly the return leg at FL410 and M0.88 indicated, before the SFI was introduced – it was probably the highest and fastest they had ever flown or would be likely to again.
'Silent running' would have meant cruising above the speed horn limit; totally pointless really*, but something which a VIP crew might need to ensure that the PM or whoever arrived at the correct 'doors time'
. The Russians had an easier way - if a VIP was going to be late at Moscow, they just stopped the airport clock at the correct time...*Unless, of course, there was a danger of missing the 1200-1400 local time lunch 'ching'......
Last edited by BEagle; 17th Jan 2013 at 15:19.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Brooklands VC 10
The aircraft now at Brooklands was delivered there on 6 July 1987. The story is all here:
The 1st and last VC10 flight
As someone else has already mentioned, that's the site to visit for almost anything regarding VC 10 ops, whether civil or military.
The 1st and last VC10 flight
As someone else has already mentioned, that's the site to visit for almost anything regarding VC 10 ops, whether civil or military.
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I do recall a night flight back from IAD when the FE call me, (GE), up and asked if I could go down the Radio Rack and check the HF boxes, (quite common in them days). He would accompany me down there. (This was in the days when smoking had just been banned on board). Prior to going down one of the checks he did was to pull the speed wasp CB.
During the subsequent smoke downstairs, beside the open frwd thrust augmentor, we felt a bit of vibration so decided to go back up only the find that we were going at .92!!!
Bit naughty but the practise stopped as we all reaped the benefits of actually tasting our first beers on the deck!
During the subsequent smoke downstairs, beside the open frwd thrust augmentor, we felt a bit of vibration so decided to go back up only the find that we were going at .92!!!
Bit naughty but the practise stopped as we all reaped the benefits of actually tasting our first beers on the deck!
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The VC10 machmeter over reads by 0.02; which is why BEagle has quoted IMN (indicated mach number) in his post. It is quite possible that the erroneous 0.02 is partly responsible for the myth that has grown-up about VC10 cruise performance. Subtract 0.02 from the figures and they sound a bit more ordinary.
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Longer Ron,
With carbon composites it is very difficult (as with plastics) to be able to define the melting temperature. Carbon composites are not a single material type.
For a start the diameter of the carbon used, as well as the type of carbon used has a major effect on what temperature the carbon will fuse.
The temperature and method used to cure the carbon also has an effect on the temperature that the carbon will melt at
To make the carbon composite a resin or epoxy is used to bind the carbon composite. Depending upon what the role of the material different types of resin or epoxy will be used
The you can include additives such as ceramics which have an effect.
The B787 is made up of a number of different types of carbon composites depending upon their function.
The carbon fibres on their own might melt between 3500 C to3650 C. The epoxy or resin are more likely to melt at 300C.
Construction of a CFRP (Carbon Fibre Reinforced Plastic) matrix using ceramics will increase the temperature but reduce flexibility.
Please remember that plastic deformation occurs prior to melting
With carbon composites it is very difficult (as with plastics) to be able to define the melting temperature. Carbon composites are not a single material type.
For a start the diameter of the carbon used, as well as the type of carbon used has a major effect on what temperature the carbon will fuse.
The temperature and method used to cure the carbon also has an effect on the temperature that the carbon will melt at
To make the carbon composite a resin or epoxy is used to bind the carbon composite. Depending upon what the role of the material different types of resin or epoxy will be used
The you can include additives such as ceramics which have an effect.
The B787 is made up of a number of different types of carbon composites depending upon their function.
The carbon fibres on their own might melt between 3500 C to3650 C. The epoxy or resin are more likely to melt at 300C.
Construction of a CFRP (Carbon Fibre Reinforced Plastic) matrix using ceramics will increase the temperature but reduce flexibility.
Please remember that plastic deformation occurs prior to melting
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Six
The RAF C Mk1 (Vickers Type 1106 - one of them is still flying as a C Mk1 K) had three cruise modes: M0.84 - long range; M.86 - normal; M.88 - high speed. All indicated - knock off 0.02 for true.
Before the restrictions Beags refers to, for crew training purposes - as defined in the AFM - we routinely took the lady to M.925. Why? To demonstrate that, unlike most airliners of that era, the VC10 had no tendency to Mach tuck in the approach to transonic flight and therefore a speed excursion on the high side was not something to be worried about. There was a nose down tendency after M.895, easily held manually, which returned to neutral by M.92.
This is off the top of my old head and if you want more, I'll have to dig out the old manual.
The RAF C Mk1 (Vickers Type 1106 - one of them is still flying as a C Mk1 K) had three cruise modes: M0.84 - long range; M.86 - normal; M.88 - high speed. All indicated - knock off 0.02 for true.
Before the restrictions Beags refers to, for crew training purposes - as defined in the AFM - we routinely took the lady to M.925. Why? To demonstrate that, unlike most airliners of that era, the VC10 had no tendency to Mach tuck in the approach to transonic flight and therefore a speed excursion on the high side was not something to be worried about. There was a nose down tendency after M.895, easily held manually, which returned to neutral by M.92.
This is off the top of my old head and if you want more, I'll have to dig out the old manual.
Mistrust in Management
He also told me that they were a bugger to get off the ground(?)
Regards
Exeng
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Interesting - a somewhat related article was posted on the Smithsonian website a couple days ago.
http://blogs.airspacemag.com/airreco...g-on-the-wing/
http://blogs.airspacemag.com/airreco...g-on-the-wing/
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VC 10 Max Mach
Don't know much about the VC10. It is indeed an impressive looking aircraft however I reckon the Lockheed L1011 TriStar is equally good looking. As for speed, the L1011 is Queen among the sub-sonic passenger airliners I think. Depending on operator preferences it can be operated at up to Mach 0.95 with Max Continuous Cruise of Mach 0.90 although most would operate around Mach 0.84 for Long Range Cruise. I recall operating at mid levels just under the "Barbers Pole" to beat a curfew on one occasion. The Flight Plan called for
LRC and 2hours14mins flight time. We completed the flight in 2 hours flat and saved just on 1000 lbs of fuel.
LRC and 2hours14mins flight time. We completed the flight in 2 hours flat and saved just on 1000 lbs of fuel.
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Thanks for the answers chaps. I get the feeling that although obviously on paper VC10 was/is at least 'one of the faster ones' the differences over distance don't strike me as being all that great, and could easily be lost waiting for clearance to land vs getting a lucky straight-in in one of the 'slower' aircraft.
All good for 'Top-Trumps' though! It really does put in to perspective what an incredible thing Concorde was.
All good for 'Top-Trumps' though! It really does put in to perspective what an incredible thing Concorde was.