French Air Strikes Over Mali
Situation seems very fluid. France seems to have decided to head up north alone, rather than wait for an African force to be assembled. They have sent a force of around forty APCs into the rebel territory.
The remnants of the Mali army have been defecting to the rebels, which may be a factor in the decision to press ahead quickly.
The remnants of the Mali army have been defecting to the rebels, which may be a factor in the decision to press ahead quickly.
Bien joué, France!
Once again, France have been quick to step in and deal with the latest threat to world peace, no dithering like everyone else. Very pleased to see UK, US, Canada assisting. I wish we would do more.
Bonne chance et tout retour en toute sécurité! Vive la France.
Edited to correct my dreadful French.
Once again, France have been quick to step in and deal with the latest threat to world peace, no dithering like everyone else. Very pleased to see UK, US, Canada assisting. I wish we would do more.
Bonne chance et tout retour en toute sécurité! Vive la France.
Edited to correct my dreadful French.
Last edited by Courtney Mil; 16th Jan 2013 at 20:23.
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So who are this "French Air"? A new airline perhaps??
and why are they on strike.....???
Mind you, they are French
Sorry, couldn't resist that one; I know; coat, door......
and why are they on strike.....???
Mind you, they are French
Sorry, couldn't resist that one; I know; coat, door......
Last edited by Nopax,thanx; 16th Jan 2013 at 11:24.
According to Le Monde, French SF now involved in hand to hand fighting with rebels.
Combats "au corps corps" entre Franais et islamistes au Mali
French doing it properly - no p*ss*ng about with "precision strikes" from drones accidentally blowing up wedding parties...
Combats "au corps corps" entre Franais et islamistes au Mali
French doing it properly - no p*ss*ng about with "precision strikes" from drones accidentally blowing up wedding parties...
Originally Posted by Trim Stab
French doing it properly - no p*ss*ng about
Originally Posted by Nopax,thanx
coat, door
AND ANOTHER THING
[RANT] To those that think your "white flag" and similar jokes are amusing, these are brave professionals going in to sort out yet another Al Qa'ida threat and putting their lives on the line on our behalves. We should all be grateful to them; no, we should be doing a lot more to support them. I look forward to your reactions the next time anyone makes a similar 'joke' about your nation's troops in AFG. Maybe you'd like to to be the one to write letters to the families of our allies' military personnel if the the worst happens. Cheap shot, well out of order.[/RANT]
Awfully early to make predictions unless they're not predictions but swipes elsewhere given you haven't a clue as to the direction of the campaign unless you somehow have access to its tactics, plans, levels of equipment, logistics. ( you're welcome) and mission goals. None of which you do.
Forward looking statements are fraught with danger of failure.
Forward looking statements are fraught with danger of failure.
Last edited by West Coast; 16th Jan 2013 at 17:46.
WC - the fact that they have moved to hand to hand fighting so early in the conflict shows firstly that they have a lot of courage and second that they are taking care to single out the real enemy and not alienate the local population who, so far, are wholeheartedly supporting their invasion.
That they are in that proximity to enemy combatants using those measures indicates to me something has gone wrong. Minimizing civilian casualties by making a decision to physically engage is not sound military strategy as it places the French at a disadvantage and can potentially lead to a higher number of casualties. You don't buy lots of nice shiny kit to make a rational decision to put it aside and get in a knife fight. You don't sustain a war by unnecessarily putting your own troops in greater danger than need be, talk about a morale killer to be told drop your rifles and draw your fighting knives. You don't build support in the home front sending flag draped coffins home at a rate greater than the public can stomach.
If its a pride thing on your part, I get it, I don't doubt the bravery of the French troops involved.
If its a pride thing on your part, I get it, I don't doubt the bravery of the French troops involved.
Last edited by West Coast; 16th Jan 2013 at 19:26.
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West Coast,
In situations such as Mali, where there are centres of populations (nodes) separated by large distances, the main focus for fighting becomes these nodes. You will find that many of the French ground forces are operating in a FIBUA environment. FIBUA is taking place after air attacks on these nodes have taken place.
The Islamist fighters are also digging in in these node points. The French forces have to confront them in these locations.
I would suggest that these are correct tactics as well for many reasons.
Edited to add that you will also find that troops are more than likely making attempts at locating and repatriating those hostages of many nationalities that have been taken.
In situations such as Mali, where there are centres of populations (nodes) separated by large distances, the main focus for fighting becomes these nodes. You will find that many of the French ground forces are operating in a FIBUA environment. FIBUA is taking place after air attacks on these nodes have taken place.
The Islamist fighters are also digging in in these node points. The French forces have to confront them in these locations.
I would suggest that these are correct tactics as well for many reasons.
Edited to add that you will also find that troops are more than likely making attempts at locating and repatriating those hostages of many nationalities that have been taken.
Last edited by hval; 16th Jan 2013 at 20:05.
Is FIBUA is fighting in built up areas? MOUT in my lexicon.
If so, there a greater chance of physical encounters, but it's not what's planned. You simply do not enter a building with the intent of using your hands or a knife as a primary weapon. Hand to hand combat is rarely the proper tactic. It places the French at a disadvantage. There are weapons designed for close quarters battle, if the US military has them and uses them, I have to believe France being a professional military force has them and trains to use them as well.
You going to have a hard time convincing me that physical encounters are preferred method of the French military. It happens, but to infer its the preferred tactic is absurd.
If so, there a greater chance of physical encounters, but it's not what's planned. You simply do not enter a building with the intent of using your hands or a knife as a primary weapon. Hand to hand combat is rarely the proper tactic. It places the French at a disadvantage. There are weapons designed for close quarters battle, if the US military has them and uses them, I have to believe France being a professional military force has them and trains to use them as well.
You going to have a hard time convincing me that physical encounters are preferred method of the French military. It happens, but to infer its the preferred tactic is absurd.
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West Coast,
My apologies, yes FIBUA is MOUT.
I suspect that the fighting "hand to hand" is meant to reflect the closeness of the fighting rather than actually fighting hand to hand.
There are tools for MOUT/ FIBUA. The USA has been able to afford many of them. Other nations not so many, but yes there are still some useful tools.
The French have reacted to the request for assistance in Mali very quickly. I suggest that they do not have all their tools with them, nor do they have sufficient troops to do anything other than what they are doing.
My apologies, yes FIBUA is MOUT.
I suspect that the fighting "hand to hand" is meant to reflect the closeness of the fighting rather than actually fighting hand to hand.
There are tools for MOUT/ FIBUA. The USA has been able to afford many of them. Other nations not so many, but yes there are still some useful tools.
The French have reacted to the request for assistance in Mali very quickly. I suggest that they do not have all their tools with them, nor do they have sufficient troops to do anything other than what they are doing.
If they have troops in place, then any competent logistics load out would have them here as well. We're talking mostly about personal weapons and a differing set of tactics trained in garrison, not some convex box of exotic high tech goodies.
Unless you or trim stab have inside information from those there, theres not enough information available in the public domain to what the situation on the ground is and thus no way to pass any kind judgement as to success or otherwise.
That said, tactics while dynamic have a common theme of putting you in an unfair fight for the other guy.
Unless you or trim stab have inside information from those there, theres not enough information available in the public domain to what the situation on the ground is and thus no way to pass any kind judgement as to success or otherwise.
That said, tactics while dynamic have a common theme of putting you in an unfair fight for the other guy.
Also not having the specifics, I generically say that until the proper folks and the proper gucci is in place that they shouldn't engage. I recognize that situations, especially defensive ones don't always permit time, but if the mission is offensive (which it sounds like from news reports) after force protection is complete, THEN you push the offensive.
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Wiggy
I'm with you.
The French have a fine military and they use it without all the stupid fan-fare that we in the U.S., do. We should have the courage to send troops to help our French friends as they have done for us. Wonderful to see the Blue White and Red leading a coalition of like color national standards into glory defending the innocent!
Viva La France!
I'm with you.
The French have a fine military and they use it without all the stupid fan-fare that we in the U.S., do. We should have the courage to send troops to help our French friends as they have done for us. Wonderful to see the Blue White and Red leading a coalition of like color national standards into glory defending the innocent!
Viva La France!
Dunno if I entirely buy the talk of well armed and well trained militants.
I sure wouldn't want to be some scrawny, henna-bearded thug on the business end of a Rafaele, 2000D or F1.
Or facing French ground troops.
Those hand amputating, extremist bullies are finally going to get some.
Personally I hope the French infantry drive them all into a wadi and the Armee de l'Air turn them into charcoal.
Good hunting.
I sure wouldn't want to be some scrawny, henna-bearded thug on the business end of a Rafaele, 2000D or F1.
Or facing French ground troops.
Those hand amputating, extremist bullies are finally going to get some.
Personally I hope the French infantry drive them all into a wadi and the Armee de l'Air turn them into charcoal.
Good hunting.
Last edited by tartare; 17th Jan 2013 at 07:33.
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Originally Posted by West Coast
I generically say that until the proper folks and the proper gucci is in place that they shouldn't engage
Originally Posted by West Coast
after force protection is complete, THEN you push the offensive.
Originally Posted by West Coast
You going to have a hard time convincing me that physical encounters are preferred method of the French military. It happens, but to infer its the preferred tactic is absurd.
Originally Posted by West Coast
Minimizing civilian casualties by making a decision to physically engage is not sound military strategy
Those past quotes are such a beautiful illustration and summary of fundamentally different tactics and state of minds between the two countries and military, that I'm going to keep them as a gem for future use, and to forward them immediately to some people in higher positions, both at home and to the other side of the Atlantic. And you don't know who I am and who I know. That could even be a subject of a major discussion in some War College.
Basically in my country we take great pride in avoiding indiscriminate bombing, thus trying trying not to alienate the people we are supposed to help or liberate. The least we can say is that it has not been the case in recent years for another military, with the results you know. A couple of failures, from Vietnam to Irak and Afghanistan/Pakistan, should make you more humble.
You are famous for logistics and long-range support for your combat troops (namely LGB being fropped from F15E to smash a couple of guys in a cave with a machine gun - how effective) You are also famous for zapping everybody who has been looking at your soldiers strangely along the road. That's simply not the way we fight - and once again, I have a certain knowledge of the business - I cannot say more on this forum as I have to stay anonymous.
Yes, fighting "hand to hand" does reflect the closeness of the fighting rather than actually fighting hand to hand - no, we are not using daggers, just 50 Cal, 20 mm in turrets and guided missiles from either combat helicopters or APC, with the appropriate level of Air Support.
We are going to send our "Infanterie de Marine", "Cavalerie", "Parachutistes" and of course Foreign Legion, on appropriate trucks (the famous VLRA) and light reconnaissance vehicules, also some wheeled sorts of battle tanks, all of them with already extensive combat experience of the African bush, not mentioning the Afghan or Bosnian mountains or the Guyana forests.
We will accept to take some risks and casualties (hopefully if they are from the other side it will be better) As our President said two days ago " we will destroy them, and if possible, take them as prisoners "
Last edited by Reinhardt; 17th Jan 2013 at 08:00.