Retained F4 Question?
Thread Starter
Retained F4 Question?
Ladies & Gentlemen,
I've just been reading in last month's issue of Classic Aircraft that the Air Chiefs were after hanging on to a handful of F4s circa 1992 in order to cope with the, by then, distant likelihood of high altitude threats. Evidently this scheme was reversed and the story goes on to say that it was the "relevant" member of the Air Force Board who made the decision to hang on to a few (there's a word!) but his successor, who took over shortly after, reversed this.
I'm thinking only CAS would have the final veto on such a decision? If so, the out going chap at the time was Sir Peter Harding, a former Canberra, Wessex and Phantom Strike role pilot, the incoming fellah was Sir Michael Graydon, a former Lightning pilot. I find this something of surprise if true as I would think that Sir Michael would be the one to favour any emphasis on the air defence role if either at all? But then I'm perhaps being simplistic!
FB
'
I've just been reading in last month's issue of Classic Aircraft that the Air Chiefs were after hanging on to a handful of F4s circa 1992 in order to cope with the, by then, distant likelihood of high altitude threats. Evidently this scheme was reversed and the story goes on to say that it was the "relevant" member of the Air Force Board who made the decision to hang on to a few (there's a word!) but his successor, who took over shortly after, reversed this.
I'm thinking only CAS would have the final veto on such a decision? If so, the out going chap at the time was Sir Peter Harding, a former Canberra, Wessex and Phantom Strike role pilot, the incoming fellah was Sir Michael Graydon, a former Lightning pilot. I find this something of surprise if true as I would think that Sir Michael would be the one to favour any emphasis on the air defence role if either at all? But then I'm perhaps being simplistic!
FB
'
I always thought it was 'Curly Bill' that made that decision to retain a few J models (it was the J79 performance in the J-model that they wanted rather than the Spey engined Tooms).
We used to practise high-flyer engagement in the F3 in the sim. Using the snap up of a Super-TEMP Skyflash missile we could engage targets above 70,000ft. We could engage higher if you broke the release to service. I flew (for real) in a F3 well above 50,000ft (without a pressure suit or system to keep me alive it all went quiet) in a F3 cruising along at M1.35 quite nicely in min reaheat and that would give the old Skyslug a pretty good Launch Success Zone. For AMRAAM the ability was much, much better (and very classified).
So, I think that keeping the F4Js 'on ice' was a bit of paranoia by the F4/Lightning mafia - sniping at the poor old Tornado F2/F3 because we'd been told to buy British in the late 70s. That said, with JTIDS, AMRAAM, ASRAAM, TRD and other modifications, it really is true that you can polish a turd!
LJ
We used to practise high-flyer engagement in the F3 in the sim. Using the snap up of a Super-TEMP Skyflash missile we could engage targets above 70,000ft. We could engage higher if you broke the release to service. I flew (for real) in a F3 well above 50,000ft (without a pressure suit or system to keep me alive it all went quiet) in a F3 cruising along at M1.35 quite nicely in min reaheat and that would give the old Skyslug a pretty good Launch Success Zone. For AMRAAM the ability was much, much better (and very classified).
So, I think that keeping the F4Js 'on ice' was a bit of paranoia by the F4/Lightning mafia - sniping at the poor old Tornado F2/F3 because we'd been told to buy British in the late 70s. That said, with JTIDS, AMRAAM, ASRAAM, TRD and other modifications, it really is true that you can polish a turd!
LJ
I doubt even back then that CAS would have the power to keep an aircraft in service. I'd imagine, as always, politics was playing a part with BAEs trying to flog F3s around the world it would look pretty poor if the RAF had to keep some legacy 1950/60s vintage aircraft in service to cover it....
Oh, A330 v VC10......
Oh, A330 v VC10......
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Stored F4s
Just to be accurate they were FGR2s - the F4Js had long gone - all bar 2 scrapped - it was the then AOC 11 Gp Sir JA ... Who kept 4 FGR2s at Shawbury just in case - I don't think they had a specific role more likely to be used at Airshows not as an F3 supplimenter
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I agree with SF that the 4 FGR2s were probably kept by JA with a plan to use them at airshows. As an airshow person and self-declared Mr F4, he would have loved to flown the ac until the present day.
Like Leon I also, possibly stupidly, exceeded the Release to Service in the Tornado F3. While doing a trial against a PR9 I climbed at M1.6 to over 57,000ft and did a look down VID. The Canberra pilot was somewhat surprised as we passed him from above as he cruised at 55,000ft. The F3 needed better understanding of how to get the best out of it's performance. There is no doubt that the F4s brute force would overcome poor flying, however, the F3 was no so forgiving
Like Leon I also, possibly stupidly, exceeded the Release to Service in the Tornado F3. While doing a trial against a PR9 I climbed at M1.6 to over 57,000ft and did a look down VID. The Canberra pilot was somewhat surprised as we passed him from above as he cruised at 55,000ft. The F3 needed better understanding of how to get the best out of it's performance. There is no doubt that the F4s brute force would overcome poor flying, however, the F3 was no so forgiving
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I agree. It was an initiative by JA that a few of the aircraft could be kept airworthy to grace the airshow circuit. The airframes stayed at Coningsby for a few years but it was a vain hope.
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F4 Experience
Me and my other half were both ex F4 ground crew and were asked some time post 1992 if we would support a program to work on an F4 (can only assume one out of RAF service or was this the display circus idea? ).
I think JA may have been after buying one!!. That was the word on the curb at the time.
I think JA may have been after buying one!!. That was the word on the curb at the time.
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EX FGR2
The Aircraft were actually stored properly at RAF Shawbury - not Conningsby, The two at CGY were an ex F4J used for battle damage as well as another FGR2 which ended up on the gate. There may have been another FGR2 that was for battle damage as well- the three preserved were XT910, XV433 XV469 and XT896- two of the aircraft were twin stickers. Shame that they were stored servicable for 3 years then cut up
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I can confirm that there were up to 6 F4s kept at Coningsby indoors in a hangar behind AMF during 92-94 and we carried out anti deterioration checks periodically.
If these are the same aircraft I can't say for sure?
If these are the same aircraft I can't say for sure?
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The F-4s that were at CBY post 1992 were-
ZE354 - bdrt i think
XT891 - currently one of the gate guards
XT905
XV426
XV497
XV460
I was told by an engineer on the station in 92 or 93 that these last four aircraft were being kept airworthy in order to participate in an upcoming RAF anniversary event and they were to be part of a flypast (1994 seems to ring a bell?). Unfortunately during the photocall in 1994 it was obvious that this was no longer going to be the case and all but the gate guard have now been scrapped...
-RP
ZE354 - bdrt i think
XT891 - currently one of the gate guards
XT905
XV426
XV497
XV460
I was told by an engineer on the station in 92 or 93 that these last four aircraft were being kept airworthy in order to participate in an upcoming RAF anniversary event and they were to be part of a flypast (1994 seems to ring a bell?). Unfortunately during the photocall in 1994 it was obvious that this was no longer going to be the case and all but the gate guard have now been scrapped...
-RP
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i apologise- id forgotten about those- 497 was at Waddington ( used to have my name on the canopy) now sold to Everretts at RAF Bentwaters. 905 is at North Luffenham and the other two scrapped but still exist as nose sections. So in effect there must have been 8 FGR2s mothballed.....almost a squadrons worth!
