RAF Lockheed P-2 Neptune
Am I right in thinking that the RAF Neptunes did not have the additional jet engines?
I am trying to think what part of the flight would you shut down what?
Jets just used for take off, climb out and any high level transit? then shut down. Props running all the time I guess?
I am trying to think what part of the flight would you shut down what?
Jets just used for take off, climb out and any high level transit? then shut down. Props running all the time I guess?
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To my knowledge no RAF aircraft were fitted with jets. All of our early ones went back to Lockheed for the upgrade.
Jets were mainly used for take off and I have heard figures of 600 gallons per hour which means you would not fire them for two long.
Regards
Col
Jets were mainly used for take off and I have heard figures of 600 gallons per hour which means you would not fire them for two long.
Regards
Col
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Herkman,
When I did my training at RSTT Wagga Wagga back in the late 60's, I definitely recall the ex 11Squadron P2V7 parked up there, the one that was engine run often by the trainees.
I'm sure that aircraft had the jets fitted!
When I did my training at RSTT Wagga Wagga back in the late 60's, I definitely recall the ex 11Squadron P2V7 parked up there, the one that was engine run often by the trainees.
I'm sure that aircraft had the jets fitted!
Last edited by EW73; 1st Jan 2013 at 00:28.
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The jets could be used if high speed dash was required, for example, (I'm assuming), to get to a target before it submerged. But, as stated above, it came at quite a cost in fuel. I understand (from bar talk) that, in the event of a failure of one of the radials at high weights, the jets served a double purpose - providing much need extra thrust, but just as importantly, shedding weight by expending all that unwanted fuel. Very, very quickly.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I think there would be no benefit gained if the packs were retained after the aircraft got airborne. Jettisoning the packs would damage them irreparably and also create a hazard on the ground.
The PR value of watching a RATO take-off would be negated by the PR value when the RATOG returned
The PR value of watching a RATO take-off would be negated by the PR value when the RATOG returned 
ISTR the RATO rockets made a heck of a noise; but what were 1950's air shows without lot's of noise and smoke etc!
Last edited by Warmtoast; 2nd Jan 2013 at 11:55.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Remember Zero-Length-Launch?
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 2nd Jan 2013 at 13:59.
Watching the film "The Silent Enemy" (about the famous Commander "Buster" Crabb) on TV recently, I noted that in a scene where he and his men dive on a crashed aircraft, it is clearly a wrecked RAF Neptune (although it is meant to be Gen Sikorski's Liberator which crashed at Gibraltar). The movie (released in 1958) was largely shot in Gibraltar and it also includes ramp shots of Shackletons of 224 Sq., although the action is set in WW2.
I wonder what Neptune was used in this film, as it would have to have been either put into a large water tank or sunk offshore for the scenes concerned. The full film is on Youtube and the Neptune is clearly recognisable at 1:09:40.
I wonder what Neptune was used in this film, as it would have to have been either put into a large water tank or sunk offshore for the scenes concerned. The full film is on Youtube and the Neptune is clearly recognisable at 1:09:40.
The Blue Angel's "Fat Albert" does RATO takeoffs at each show usually.
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No, they don't.
November 14 2009 was the last JATO take-off at an air show for Fat Albert.
Nov. 14 is final JATO for popular Fat Albert - Navy News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Navy Times
November 14 2009 was the last JATO take-off at an air show for Fat Albert.
Nov. 14 is final JATO for popular Fat Albert - Navy News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Navy Times
The way the budget is going....the Blues will be grounded altogether in time.
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Liffy 1M, the aircraft in the film 'Silent Enemy' was likely WX547/51-15958.
This aircraft had suffered an undercarriage collapse on landing at Hal Far, Malta, on 13 Jan 56 and was subsequently written off. On 30 May 57, the remains were sold to Remus Films and pushed into the sea from cliffs at Hal Far.
This aircraft is shown in Warmtoast's Post #11 on Page 1 of this thread.
Info here:
UK Serials
When the link opens, scroll halfway down to the serial.
This aircraft had suffered an undercarriage collapse on landing at Hal Far, Malta, on 13 Jan 56 and was subsequently written off. On 30 May 57, the remains were sold to Remus Films and pushed into the sea from cliffs at Hal Far.
This aircraft is shown in Warmtoast's Post #11 on Page 1 of this thread.
Info here:
UK Serials
When the link opens, scroll halfway down to the serial.
Last edited by lauriebe; 3rd Jan 2013 at 05:22.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Interested to know what the data link was. Too early for Link 11?
Description of the book on page 4 of the thread looks interesting. Just ordered my copy.....
Secret Projects: Battle Flight: RAF Air Defence Projects and Weapons Since 1945 by Chris Gibson
CJGibson:
Dug out my ASAEW notes from Kew.
At 1000ft the tweaked AN/APS.20 could detect a Canberra flying at 300ft at 65nm. AN/APS.20 radar was "somewhat delicate", needed much "day-to-day maintenance" and the datalink was unreliable. The Neptune wasn't ideal as an AEW aircraft as it was too small, unreliable and could either control or report, but not both simultaneously. Accompanying fighters couldn't be seen on the radar due to clutter, so couldn't be vectored. Worked best if the radar picture was sent back to ground station, which limited the patrol line to 35 miles from the ground station. A 24 hour patrol line would require 9 Neptunes, which in 1955 was too expensive. Despite all that, HQ 12 Group were very happy.
Battle Flight has gone to the printer and as promised, a chapter summary.
Battle Flight – RAF Air Defence Projects and Weapons
Chapter 1: X-Rays and the Evolution of the Threat
How the threat from the UK changed from 1000-bomber raids by Bulls to Badgers and Bears with free-fall nuclear bombs and stand-off weapons before moving to the ballistic missile. Post-Polaris the air-breathing threat changed to a dedicated maritime strike force of Backfire and Badger to attack NATO lines of communication.
Chapter 2: Lethal Confetti – Air Defence Artillery
The postwar development of British AA guns with the quest for more height, accuracy and rate of fire. Dr Beeching’s (yes, him) report on anti-aircraft guns and new rocket weapons such as Typhoon and High-Flyer. Also looks at Wallis’ Green Lizard and how the ever-more complex fire-control systems made the SAM a more effective alternative.
Chapter 3: Caelum Tuemur - We Watch over the Skies
Postwar early warning radars and plans from the Type 14 to the Type 93 and how they fitted into the air defence plans such as ROTOR, AHEAD and Linesman. Radar projects such as Red Cabbage, Blue Joker, Wealth, STAR, BMEWS and over-the-horizon techniques.
Chapter 4: We’re not Defending the Bloody French! - SAMs
Surface-to-air missiles - Bloodhound in its Mk.2, Command-guidance and nuclear guises, the origins of Blue Envoy and the hearing aid computer, Land Dart and why it didn’t prosper. The Stage II and III projects. A look at the post-Bloodhound projects such as FMS, SAM-72, SAM-3 and Guardian.
Chapter 5: Catch a Falling Star – ABMs
The fruitless search for a dual-purpose weapon. The basic systems based on Stages 1½, 1¾ and II. The bespoke ABMs such as Project 29 (the real one, not the one based on Bloodhound) and 36. Comparisons with US experience with ABMs. Helmet and Gerry Bull. ATBMs – Wolverine and how pushing the envelope killed British SAM projects.
Chapter6: Achieving a K-Kill -Weapons against Aircraft
Development of interceptor armament including the Aden, recoilless guns and air-to-air rockets. Nuclear weapons against aircraft, how the Air Staff calibrated their model and why such weapons fell from favour. Tossing Red Beards at Bears and the Air Staff’s efforts to acquire Genie. What would replace Red Top and the quest for more firepower leading to the flying battleship.
Chapter 7: Force Multipliers - Top-ups and Tip-offs
Elint types from the Washington to the Air Seeker via the Comet, Nimrod and VC10. Development of in-flight refuelling from the origin of the role with Cobham’s prewar work, the wartime proposals for the Pacific theatre, the postwar adoption by the RAF with Valiants then Victors and VC10s. Brief history of the V1000. The rise of the multi-role aircraft including the Super-tanker and BAe Woodford’s MRSA proposals based on Airbuses, FIMA and the LARC. The 50 year saga of the RAF’s search for an AEW type, Fishpond, Netcentric warfare in 1944, C-97AEW, Andover AEW and ASR.387, ASR.400, E-2K, HS.748AEW and the Nimrod debacle, plus Woodford’s MRSA and LARC again.
Chapter 8: The 1950s Terminal Event - Sandys, F.155 and Under-the-Counter Fighters
Why Britain had a fighter gap in the early 50s, the British Volksjäger, mixed thinking on powerplants. Proactive air defence – Warton’s intruders; the P.2 and P.12. The 1954 Air Defence Working party, the RAE’s Schräge Musik fighters, and the origins of Sandys’ thinking. Albion’s Foxbat, the F.155 juggernaut and how its end came with a beeping sphere and the Sandys Terminal Event. How the under-the-radar P.17 led to the under-the-counter P.22 fighter from Warton and thus prompted the rise of the mud-mover.
Chapter 9: Two Decades of Certainty - 1957 Onwards
The Admiralty lead the field in fighters while the mud-movers muscle-in on air defence with the rise of the multi-role fighter such as Warton’s PL.1. The threat changes from east to north prompting a change in air defence strategy. How Sandys did us a favour by clearing the decks. The Phantom CAP fits the GIUK Gap. The 1964 Air Defence Working Party report lays the foundation for the air defence systems we have today. The Jones fighter and how the Italians helped it evolve into the Tornado ADV we know today.
Chapter 10: Tornado ADV - A Merely Symbolic Force or Flying Battleship?
The alternatives to, and evolution of, the Tornado ADV and the threat from America. Why the RAF bought the Tornado ADV rather than the Tomcat or Eagle. The Phantom options and the development of, and alternatives to, Skyflash. Knife and fork prototypes from France and the Tornado for the Force de Frappe – how the French could have saved the entire MRCA project and the ACF could have kept the Bears at bay. Stretching the Tornado ADV.
Appendix – Operational requirements and Staff Targets
Description of the book on page 4 of the thread looks interesting. Just ordered my copy.....
Secret Projects: Battle Flight: RAF Air Defence Projects and Weapons Since 1945 by Chris Gibson
CJGibson:
Dug out my ASAEW notes from Kew.
At 1000ft the tweaked AN/APS.20 could detect a Canberra flying at 300ft at 65nm. AN/APS.20 radar was "somewhat delicate", needed much "day-to-day maintenance" and the datalink was unreliable. The Neptune wasn't ideal as an AEW aircraft as it was too small, unreliable and could either control or report, but not both simultaneously. Accompanying fighters couldn't be seen on the radar due to clutter, so couldn't be vectored. Worked best if the radar picture was sent back to ground station, which limited the patrol line to 35 miles from the ground station. A 24 hour patrol line would require 9 Neptunes, which in 1955 was too expensive. Despite all that, HQ 12 Group were very happy.
Battle Flight has gone to the printer and as promised, a chapter summary.
Battle Flight – RAF Air Defence Projects and Weapons
Chapter 1: X-Rays and the Evolution of the Threat
How the threat from the UK changed from 1000-bomber raids by Bulls to Badgers and Bears with free-fall nuclear bombs and stand-off weapons before moving to the ballistic missile. Post-Polaris the air-breathing threat changed to a dedicated maritime strike force of Backfire and Badger to attack NATO lines of communication.
Chapter 2: Lethal Confetti – Air Defence Artillery
The postwar development of British AA guns with the quest for more height, accuracy and rate of fire. Dr Beeching’s (yes, him) report on anti-aircraft guns and new rocket weapons such as Typhoon and High-Flyer. Also looks at Wallis’ Green Lizard and how the ever-more complex fire-control systems made the SAM a more effective alternative.
Chapter 3: Caelum Tuemur - We Watch over the Skies
Postwar early warning radars and plans from the Type 14 to the Type 93 and how they fitted into the air defence plans such as ROTOR, AHEAD and Linesman. Radar projects such as Red Cabbage, Blue Joker, Wealth, STAR, BMEWS and over-the-horizon techniques.
Chapter 4: We’re not Defending the Bloody French! - SAMs
Surface-to-air missiles - Bloodhound in its Mk.2, Command-guidance and nuclear guises, the origins of Blue Envoy and the hearing aid computer, Land Dart and why it didn’t prosper. The Stage II and III projects. A look at the post-Bloodhound projects such as FMS, SAM-72, SAM-3 and Guardian.
Chapter 5: Catch a Falling Star – ABMs
The fruitless search for a dual-purpose weapon. The basic systems based on Stages 1½, 1¾ and II. The bespoke ABMs such as Project 29 (the real one, not the one based on Bloodhound) and 36. Comparisons with US experience with ABMs. Helmet and Gerry Bull. ATBMs – Wolverine and how pushing the envelope killed British SAM projects.
Chapter6: Achieving a K-Kill -Weapons against Aircraft
Development of interceptor armament including the Aden, recoilless guns and air-to-air rockets. Nuclear weapons against aircraft, how the Air Staff calibrated their model and why such weapons fell from favour. Tossing Red Beards at Bears and the Air Staff’s efforts to acquire Genie. What would replace Red Top and the quest for more firepower leading to the flying battleship.
Chapter 7: Force Multipliers - Top-ups and Tip-offs
Elint types from the Washington to the Air Seeker via the Comet, Nimrod and VC10. Development of in-flight refuelling from the origin of the role with Cobham’s prewar work, the wartime proposals for the Pacific theatre, the postwar adoption by the RAF with Valiants then Victors and VC10s. Brief history of the V1000. The rise of the multi-role aircraft including the Super-tanker and BAe Woodford’s MRSA proposals based on Airbuses, FIMA and the LARC. The 50 year saga of the RAF’s search for an AEW type, Fishpond, Netcentric warfare in 1944, C-97AEW, Andover AEW and ASR.387, ASR.400, E-2K, HS.748AEW and the Nimrod debacle, plus Woodford’s MRSA and LARC again.
Chapter 8: The 1950s Terminal Event - Sandys, F.155 and Under-the-Counter Fighters
Why Britain had a fighter gap in the early 50s, the British Volksjäger, mixed thinking on powerplants. Proactive air defence – Warton’s intruders; the P.2 and P.12. The 1954 Air Defence Working party, the RAE’s Schräge Musik fighters, and the origins of Sandys’ thinking. Albion’s Foxbat, the F.155 juggernaut and how its end came with a beeping sphere and the Sandys Terminal Event. How the under-the-radar P.17 led to the under-the-counter P.22 fighter from Warton and thus prompted the rise of the mud-mover.
Chapter 9: Two Decades of Certainty - 1957 Onwards
The Admiralty lead the field in fighters while the mud-movers muscle-in on air defence with the rise of the multi-role fighter such as Warton’s PL.1. The threat changes from east to north prompting a change in air defence strategy. How Sandys did us a favour by clearing the decks. The Phantom CAP fits the GIUK Gap. The 1964 Air Defence Working Party report lays the foundation for the air defence systems we have today. The Jones fighter and how the Italians helped it evolve into the Tornado ADV we know today.
Chapter 10: Tornado ADV - A Merely Symbolic Force or Flying Battleship?
The alternatives to, and evolution of, the Tornado ADV and the threat from America. Why the RAF bought the Tornado ADV rather than the Tomcat or Eagle. The Phantom options and the development of, and alternatives to, Skyflash. Knife and fork prototypes from France and the Tornado for the Force de Frappe – how the French could have saved the entire MRCA project and the ACF could have kept the Bears at bay. Stretching the Tornado ADV.
Appendix – Operational requirements and Staff Targets
Last edited by ORAC; 3rd Jan 2013 at 10:19.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
ORAC, fascinating and to some extent what a thread (and thread drift). If this synopsis:
It suggests that the UK Main Base Taceval scenario was skewed from the first day.
Why penetrate a robust central European defence before sending large vulnerable bombers to pin prick the UK main base? Why attack the UK Radar system from high-level with long range missiles when there was a much less significant low level penetration risk?
I long held the view that these exercises were wholly synthetic and designed to let us play at what we could do rather than admit what we couldn't. Bomber Command never had paper sandbags to defend against paper nukes.
the Evolution of the Threat
How the threat from the UK changed from . . . Post-Polaris the air-breathing threat changed to a dedicated maritime strike force of Backfire and Badger to attack NATO lines of communication.
How the threat from the UK changed from . . . Post-Polaris the air-breathing threat changed to a dedicated maritime strike force of Backfire and Badger to attack NATO lines of communication.
Why penetrate a robust central European defence before sending large vulnerable bombers to pin prick the UK main base? Why attack the UK Radar system from high-level with long range missiles when there was a much less significant low level penetration risk?
I long held the view that these exercises were wholly synthetic and designed to let us play at what we could do rather than admit what we couldn't. Bomber Command never had paper sandbags to defend against paper nukes.
In the early 90's I heli-lifted two Neptune engines off the Mull. I remember helping the guys pull one of them out of the mud; the oil was as fresh as the day it had crashed, and the peaty soil had protected the metal beautifully. One went to the Officers' Mess, the other to the Sgts Mess at Machrihanish.
Liffy 1M, the aircraft in the film 'Silent Enemy' was likely WX547/51-15958.
This aircraft had suffered an undercarriage collapse on landing at Hal Far, Malta, on 13 Jan 56 and was subsequently written off. On 30 May 57, the remains were sold to Remus Films and pushed into the sea from cliffs at Hal Far.
This aircraft had suffered an undercarriage collapse on landing at Hal Far, Malta, on 13 Jan 56 and was subsequently written off. On 30 May 57, the remains were sold to Remus Films and pushed into the sea from cliffs at Hal Far.
ancientaviator62
Flight engineer on the Herc sqn wasn't Frank Watson was it?He was on Neptunes for a short while before moving to Hastings and Beverleys and eventually on to Hercules-became a wing examiner at Lyneham after a spell as Adj(Flying) at ETPS.He is my uncle.
SF
Flight engineer on the Herc sqn wasn't Frank Watson was it?He was on Neptunes for a short while before moving to Hastings and Beverleys and eventually on to Hercules-became a wing examiner at Lyneham after a spell as Adj(Flying) at ETPS.He is my uncle.
SF