Armed Forces Justice system falling apart
After the verdict, Col Charles Barnett, from the Services Prosecuting Authority, said Nightingale's "fine record as a soldier" would be a matter considered when he is sentenced.
Sgt Nightingale's legal team should rightfully demand that the verdict of this court now be quashed as a senior prosecutor has publicly displayed a less than impartial attitude which could be construed as an attempt to direct the sentencing decision - which would clearly be legally unsafe.
Nevertheless, in effect he has made an inappropriate speculative public statement concerning the sentencing policy....
Which makes this whole court martial process unsafe.
Which makes this whole court martial process unsafe.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was the prosecutor etc for one of the airwomen under my command. The charge was a man in her room. Her boyfriend was in Iraq. The man was a friend of her boyfriend. He lived off-base and he was drunk. She invited him to her room to make him a black coffee. The voyeurs in white hats saw them through the window. There was no impropriety but is was an open and shut case - ie contrary to SSOs.
I would have had words with her, which I did after I duly found her guilty and fined. Handbrake house allowed me no discretion, ie guilty as charged, and fined the cost of a B&B at a local hotel. Hypocritical?
That conviction will no doubt still be on file 20 years later.
I would have had words with her, which I did after I duly found her guilty and fined. Handbrake house allowed me no discretion, ie guilty as charged, and fined the cost of a B&B at a local hotel. Hypocritical?
That conviction will no doubt still be on file 20 years later.
Knew this chap personnally and he was a top guy. Hard working and always keen to learn. Wrong place, wrong time, wrong Cpl.
Same Cpl gave me a b*ll*cking infront of a shop full of people for wearing a black jacket he wasnt happy with. Nothing offensive, it just featured a small embroidered RAF roundel on one arm.
Cpl: "Whats f**king wrong with you? We're in public, we need to keep a low profile - Who the f**k briefed you about this trip?!"
WC: "You did Corporal"
Cpl: "....Put it away"
All this from a guy with a DPM daysack slung over his shoulder, stood next to another wearing a T-shirt of a topless Maxim girl.
Re: Sgt Nightingale: Yes, he did break the rules, he should have had a (small) slap on the wrist, but he wasnt the only one. Not saying that makes it okay. He seems like a highly professional chap who has had a bloody rough ride. He obviously is someone who takes a proactive approach to his profession- he's personally developed a dressing to deal with penetrating chest trauma.
Certainly isn't the first time someone in UKSF has taken home ordinance from an exercise. Difference is, this guy used his
. He's now one of our more celebrated explorers.I did find this line from the Crown rather amusing:
Sgt Nightingale had put the public at risk by having the lethal arsenal stored in an insecure house.
Last edited by WannabeCrewman; 11th Jul 2013 at 06:42.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,515
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Beags,
What can and cannot be reported and spoken about before, during and after legal due process in the UK (civvy or military) is covered by a stringent set of laws. I'm pretty certain, said spokesperson would have been operating within these laws and guidelines - especially given the sensitive circumstances of this case.
JMO
What can and cannot be reported and spoken about before, during and after legal due process in the UK (civvy or military) is covered by a stringent set of laws. I'm pretty certain, said spokesperson would have been operating within these laws and guidelines - especially given the sensitive circumstances of this case.
JMO
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: @exRAF_Al
Posts: 3,297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm sure that whatever the punishment, this has legs.
Courts martial could be 'unfair', warns top military judge - Defence Management
Courts martial could be 'unfair', warns top military judge - Defence Management
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: UK, sometimes!
Age: 74
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Sgt Nightingale: Yes, he did break the rules, he should have had a (small) slap on the wrist
The law is simple and clear and comes with a MANDATORY 5 year prison sentence. Anything else will simply make a mockery of the judicial system, Military or Civil (although IMHO since the weapon and ammunition were found in a house in a civilian population, and not inside a military establishment, then it should have been handled in the civilian courts).
Join Date: May 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mad_Mark:
I've got no valid argument against that to be honest; as members of HM Armed Forces we are subject to military and civil law, and whilst I think any jury (and the general public) would be far happier with a UKSF operator possessing ammunition over some jacked up gun-nut, you are right. What he did is illegal.
I just cant help but think that he has been a bit of a scapegoat. The fact that they are apparently flying guys back from Herrick to testify against him suggests they are pretty keen to have this guy convicted.
I've got no valid argument against that to be honest; as members of HM Armed Forces we are subject to military and civil law, and whilst I think any jury (and the general public) would be far happier with a UKSF operator possessing ammunition over some jacked up gun-nut, you are right. What he did is illegal.
I just cant help but think that he has been a bit of a scapegoat. The fact that they are apparently flying guys back from Herrick to testify against him suggests they are pretty keen to have this guy convicted.
Last edited by WannabeCrewman; 11th Jul 2013 at 08:00.
Perhaps the most humbling experience in all my years was in 2003 while trialling the BOWMAN replacement in the Brecons with these guys. (Think about it, the replacement, months before the main contract was let).
A young chap is driven up and the CO invites me to accompany him out to the car park. The guy had almost lost his foot on a previous deployment and could barely walk. He had had his mate drive him hundreds of miles to beg to be allowed to go back on duty. They have a name for the physical test they have to pass, which escapes me. He'd have needed two rifles, one as a crutch. The CO was a kindly man, but the chap left almost in tears.
There are certain people in this world who deserve a little leeway.
A young chap is driven up and the CO invites me to accompany him out to the car park. The guy had almost lost his foot on a previous deployment and could barely walk. He had had his mate drive him hundreds of miles to beg to be allowed to go back on duty. They have a name for the physical test they have to pass, which escapes me. He'd have needed two rifles, one as a crutch. The CO was a kindly man, but the chap left almost in tears.
There are certain people in this world who deserve a little leeway.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Wiltshire
Age: 59
Posts: 903
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Certainly isn't the first time someone in UKSF has taken home ordinance from an exercise. Difference is, this guy used his . He's now one of our more celebrated explorers.
After a court case, Fiennes had to pay a hefty fine and he and his co-conspirator were discharged from the SAS. Fiennes was initially posted to another cavalry regiment but was then allowed to return to his regiment.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
taken home ordinance from an exercise
Or the RAuxRegt FS that simply stored unused boxes in the unit lockup rather than dragging in the regular duty armourer and battling with the paperwork late on a Sunday night. It also meant their consumption was recorded as at the permitted rate and they would have spare ammunition for the future.
Squirrelling 340 rounds away smacks of convenience rather than need.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: UK, sometimes!
Age: 74
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Squirrelling 340 rounds away smacks of convenience rather than need.
Whatever Sgt Nightingale did and for whatever reasons, maybe others will learn from this and not make the same 'mistakes'
MadMark!!!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Back to the fold in the map
Posts: 382
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
1 Post
Journalism "for Justice"?
Gents, as I think I have said in a previous post. I have sympathy for Sgt Nightingale and I believe that the original CM recognised his circumstances and dealt with him as leniently as possible. Then, the journos get involved with their "Outrage" headlines and the clarion call is taken up by the great unwashed. I know the sort of hysteria that went on - a relative was a close neighbour of the Sgt and there were several heated conversations in our house when they came to stay. Fact is that it is an absolute offence - there is no defence, only mitigation. Outcome, a retrial in the full glare of publicity which leaves the CM absolutely no wriggle-room at all - and we end up where we are now. A salutory lesson to all concerned.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South of England
Age: 74
Posts: 627
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
4 Posts
Beags
The point I was getting at, in my short post, was that the British Justice system requires judges to consider the previous behaviour, e.g. record, of any defendant in deciding the sentence.
For instance, it is quite common to hear solicitors and barristers refer to their client's previous "good character" in their mitigation submissions.
The Col was simply referring to the existing sentencing policy. His comment couldn't influence the sentencing policy because it just described one aspect of the sentencing policy as it is.
Rgds SOS
For instance, it is quite common to hear solicitors and barristers refer to their client's previous "good character" in their mitigation submissions.
The Col was simply referring to the existing sentencing policy. His comment couldn't influence the sentencing policy because it just described one aspect of the sentencing policy as it is.
Rgds SOS
Last edited by SOSL; 11th Jul 2013 at 14:17.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South of England
Age: 74
Posts: 627
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
4 Posts
CB
It's not any sort of offence unless it is proven
It may be that Nightingale's confession and the gun and ammunition found in his possession by the authorities add up to "proof". So, from what we know it was proven.
Nonetheless he, just like all miscreants, deserves to have his previous record considered, in mitigation, when he is sentenced.
Rgds SOS
it is an absolute offence - there is no defence, only mitigation.
Nonetheless he, just like all miscreants, deserves to have his previous record considered, in mitigation, when he is sentenced.
Rgds SOS
Last edited by SOSL; 11th Jul 2013 at 15:34. Reason: CB
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: UK, sometimes!
Age: 74
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nonetheless he, just like all miscreants, deserves to have his previous record considered, in mitigation, when he is sentenced.
MadMark!!!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
MM, I was not suggesting that squirrelling was acceptable but that it is a well know habit in the military. You grab what you can when it is available as you know full well that it will be in short supply, restricted etc next.
Not an excuse at all, simply a cultural thing. It is also a means of short cutting the admin red tape. That is why, in this case, he was found guilty as charged.
Not an excuse at all, simply a cultural thing. It is also a means of short cutting the admin red tape. That is why, in this case, he was found guilty as charged.