Buccaneer replaced by Hunter
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Pulling 4g in a Bucc you must have been lucky. I had the tedious task of calculating the Fatigue Index used after each flight. It was rare to see a count of 4g as this normaly meant over stress and NDT checks as there we airframe restrictions that quite often limited the aircraft to 3G or below.
If the aircraft had an over stress indication the defence put up by the crew was the fatigue meter was in the centre of the aircraft and the G gauge was in the cockpit thus the readings would be different.
I was informed that at higher g there was a distinct buffet from the airframe but due to the g restrictions on the airframe many crews never got to experience this. However at the end of the aircraft service the last flights were very popular with the crews for some unknown reason.
If the aircraft had an over stress indication the defence put up by the crew was the fatigue meter was in the centre of the aircraft and the G gauge was in the cockpit thus the readings would be different.
I was informed that at higher g there was a distinct buffet from the airframe but due to the g restrictions on the airframe many crews never got to experience this. However at the end of the aircraft service the last flights were very popular with the crews for some unknown reason.
Join Date: Dec 2003
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All the 237 OCU Buccs were G limited to less than normal and maybe this is why BEagle recall this limitation. The whole OCU fleet was a rare old mixture of airframes and models. We still had the last one with out a bomb bay tank (2A or B not sure). It always caused confusion on the line. Most, but not all of them had the wing fold inhibited and I think two but definatly 1 had done foam strip landings at Manston. I went down to recover it.
The OCU certainly got all the crap and not only the knackered Buccs.
The Hunters were not a lot better. All different build standards. A lot of the electrical instalations and radio kit were in different locations.
35 years later I still go in that hangar regularly. I still see them as I walk in. The FLMs are still sweeping the floor with chicken ****. I am sure you can still smell OM15 in there.
The OCU certainly got all the crap and not only the knackered Buccs.
The Hunters were not a lot better. All different build standards. A lot of the electrical instalations and radio kit were in different locations.
35 years later I still go in that hangar regularly. I still see them as I walk in. The FLMs are still sweeping the floor with chicken ****. I am sure you can still smell OM15 in there.
'All the 237 OCU Buccs were G limited to less than normal and maybe this is why BEagle recall this limitation. The whole OCU fleet was a rare old mixture of airframes and models. We still had the last one with out a bomb bay tank (2A or B not sure). It always caused confusion on the line. Most, but not all of them had the wing fold inhibited and I think two but definatly 1 had done foam strip landings at Manston. I went down to recover it.'
The OCU Buccs were not G limited to less than normal. The problem BEagle referred to was to avoid roll yaw coupling. The OCU fleet post the Red Flag accident was not a mixture - they were all 2As. None, to my recollection had the wingfold inhibited, certainly not for any length of time. I can't recollect any foamed landings at Manston. Other than that, a reasonably accurate posting!
The OCU Buccs were not G limited to less than normal. The problem BEagle referred to was to avoid roll yaw coupling. The OCU fleet post the Red Flag accident was not a mixture - they were all 2As. None, to my recollection had the wingfold inhibited, certainly not for any length of time. I can't recollect any foamed landings at Manston. Other than that, a reasonably accurate posting!
When I was there in late 1976, we certainly had a mix of S2, S2A and S2B variants - and the Hunters were T7A and T8B variants.
I recall the 'differences' brief for the S2 - a verbal comment about different brakes and electrical systems and why aren't you airborne yet....
Surely the 'g' limit wasn't as low as +3?
I recall the 'differences' brief for the S2 - a verbal comment about different brakes and electrical systems and why aren't you airborne yet....
Surely the 'g' limit wasn't as low as +3?
I didn't know Ken Tait well, but I do recall a particular flight (nearly) with him.
In July '79, I went from Gütersloh to Aviano for an air display. The weather was not at all good. On the way there, our 2 Harriers were diverted because of thunderstorms, but we eventually got to our destination. The weekend was good enough for the display, but at going home time on Monday, the weather was miserable - fairly heavy rain from about 1000' overcast. To compound matters, Italian ATC were taking some form of industrial action, limiting movements to about 1 every 30 minutes. At an appropriate time, we strapped in, sent groundcrew to cover, closed canopies, started APUs and listened out for developments.
After a while, we heard Ken's distinctive tones calling for taxi. The American ATC reply was along the lines of "I'm sorry, sir, you've missed your slot time, call again in one hour." Ken then explained at length and in colourful terms that he had already been through this whole procedure before, and due to his need to start an engine to do so, many people had suffered much discomfort, so he really needed to depart forthwith. ATC said no. The controller then called "RAFAIR c/s, you can taxi in 5 minutes if you can make that time." I, of course, replied in the affirmative and started up. Ken then came up with "Is that the Harriers?" I told him it was indeed us, to which he replied "Roger, I'm your No 3 now." I tried discussing how we might do a formation departure in the weather, but he said just to carry on, he'd look after himself. Sure enough, he taxied and lined up behind us, and off we went. That was the last we saw of him. He used his nav and radar to stay behind and below us as we proceeded in IMC across Italy. At each frequency change, he said "3", but that was all. About halfway across Italy, it became apparent that Ken wanted to follow a different route, so we started to diverge. This caused the odd ATC query of "Eh, 'ow many aircraft you got inna your formation?" countered by "2-ish". At the French FIR boundary, Ken's silence ended, as he proceeded to file an airborne flight plan. He was heading for Laarbruch, while we needed to stop at Dijon for fuel. We all got home safely, but I don't know if Ken got any comeback; I heard nothing.
Quite a character.
In July '79, I went from Gütersloh to Aviano for an air display. The weather was not at all good. On the way there, our 2 Harriers were diverted because of thunderstorms, but we eventually got to our destination. The weekend was good enough for the display, but at going home time on Monday, the weather was miserable - fairly heavy rain from about 1000' overcast. To compound matters, Italian ATC were taking some form of industrial action, limiting movements to about 1 every 30 minutes. At an appropriate time, we strapped in, sent groundcrew to cover, closed canopies, started APUs and listened out for developments.
After a while, we heard Ken's distinctive tones calling for taxi. The American ATC reply was along the lines of "I'm sorry, sir, you've missed your slot time, call again in one hour." Ken then explained at length and in colourful terms that he had already been through this whole procedure before, and due to his need to start an engine to do so, many people had suffered much discomfort, so he really needed to depart forthwith. ATC said no. The controller then called "RAFAIR c/s, you can taxi in 5 minutes if you can make that time." I, of course, replied in the affirmative and started up. Ken then came up with "Is that the Harriers?" I told him it was indeed us, to which he replied "Roger, I'm your No 3 now." I tried discussing how we might do a formation departure in the weather, but he said just to carry on, he'd look after himself. Sure enough, he taxied and lined up behind us, and off we went. That was the last we saw of him. He used his nav and radar to stay behind and below us as we proceeded in IMC across Italy. At each frequency change, he said "3", but that was all. About halfway across Italy, it became apparent that Ken wanted to follow a different route, so we started to diverge. This caused the odd ATC query of "Eh, 'ow many aircraft you got inna your formation?" countered by "2-ish". At the French FIR boundary, Ken's silence ended, as he proceeded to file an airborne flight plan. He was heading for Laarbruch, while we needed to stop at Dijon for fuel. We all got home safely, but I don't know if Ken got any comeback; I heard nothing.
Quite a character.
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I was on the RN Bucc right up to 'our' end in 1978. The old machine although often likened to a brick s**thouse was in fact beginning to crack all over the place:
a. Ring spar cracks ( BLC ducts out and NDT checks periodically)
b. Fin Spar attachment brackets ( More periodic NDT checks)
c. Main U/C pintel cracks ( More NDT checks)
d. Arrestor Hook bracket cracks
There's probably more if somebodys got an old NDT manual
Incidentally to my recollection 237 OCU had Mk 2A's ( Non Martel) and Mk 2B's (Martel) - we had 3 on RN Unit. 809 NAS operated Mk2C's (Non Martel) and Mk 2D's (Martel)
Finally - Ken Tait and I were both at Perth Academy at the same time in the late 50's and I bumped into him when he lobbed in in a Jaguar and parked overnight in hangar D (RNU) (lots of leaky fuel) in the mid 70's - I guess he was just about to start his Bucc conversion - we recognised each other right away.
a. Ring spar cracks ( BLC ducts out and NDT checks periodically)
b. Fin Spar attachment brackets ( More periodic NDT checks)
c. Main U/C pintel cracks ( More NDT checks)
d. Arrestor Hook bracket cracks
There's probably more if somebodys got an old NDT manual
Incidentally to my recollection 237 OCU had Mk 2A's ( Non Martel) and Mk 2B's (Martel) - we had 3 on RN Unit. 809 NAS operated Mk2C's (Non Martel) and Mk 2D's (Martel)
Finally - Ken Tait and I were both at Perth Academy at the same time in the late 50's and I bumped into him when he lobbed in in a Jaguar and parked overnight in hangar D (RNU) (lots of leaky fuel) in the mid 70's - I guess he was just about to start his Bucc conversion - we recognised each other right away.
A few Buccaneer airframes were limited to 5g rather than the normal 6g although I cannot remember the reason why. With fuel in the underwing tanks the limit was 3g.
With respect to the Hunters that we flew during early 1980 while the fleet was grounded, a few were F6As which came from Brawdy but most were the ex-Valley F6s and T7s that had been in storage at Kemble for around 18 months. I finished the OCU 3 days before the tragic accident at Nellis. Luckily, I knew the UPT at Kemble and managed to go there helping with airtesting and delivering the Hunters to Honington and Laarbruch. What could have been a disasterous start to my first tour was actually great fun! I think that we had to hand back the last of the single-seaters in September but many of the T7s and T8Cs stayed within the force. The OCU kept the IFIS T7As and T8Bs and on 208 we kept 2 T7s which were great for bouncing etc.
With respect to the Hunters that we flew during early 1980 while the fleet was grounded, a few were F6As which came from Brawdy but most were the ex-Valley F6s and T7s that had been in storage at Kemble for around 18 months. I finished the OCU 3 days before the tragic accident at Nellis. Luckily, I knew the UPT at Kemble and managed to go there helping with airtesting and delivering the Hunters to Honington and Laarbruch. What could have been a disasterous start to my first tour was actually great fun! I think that we had to hand back the last of the single-seaters in September but many of the T7s and T8Cs stayed within the force. The OCU kept the IFIS T7As and T8Bs and on 208 we kept 2 T7s which were great for bouncing etc.
What could have been a disasterous start to my first tour was actually great fun!
Join Date: Dec 2012
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I remember 237 OCU with affection, they were great days, I was there from 1978 until 1982 as a weapons engineer. The Hunters we had after the Buccs were grounded made a pleasant change to work on, memories of the 1960's. I still have one picture of an OCU Hunter F6 or FGA9 with me at its side circa Honington 1980/1.
And you of all people should know that there was no Mk3!
Indeed there was. But only one. WB188 with a modified nose, modified windscreen, reheated Avon and side-mounted airbrakes. Which was flown by Neville Duke at 727.63 mph almost 60 years ago to win the World Air Speed Record for Great Britain.
The aircraft (minus modified windscreen) is now on display at the Tangmere Military Aviation Museum - see Hawker Hunter Mk3 | Tangmere Museum .
No Mk 3 indeed......
Nor 4 or 10? And you of all people should know that there was no Mk3!
Mk 4, cuefaye? Yes, I think he claimed that as the GA.11 was a modded F.4.
And FR.10 - I think there was one floating around he got his hands on.
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We where very fortunate to meet up with Rob Tait (Ken Tait's son) up at Bruntingthorpe as XX894 was the last Buccaneer that Ken Tait flew in before his accident during Red Flag.
Rob wrote a very nice piece about his memories and the experience of having a fast taxi in XX894 at Bruntingthorpe.
A Fast Taxi in Memorial to Squadron Leader K J Tait and Flt. Lt. C R Ruston
Rob wrote a very nice piece about his memories and the experience of having a fast taxi in XX894 at Bruntingthorpe.
A Fast Taxi in Memorial to Squadron Leader K J Tait and Flt. Lt. C R Ruston
MM, the Hunters were not war goers. They were operated purely for the crews to maintain flying proficiency. Personally, I would quite happily have gone to war in a Bucc over this period.
As for Hunter marks that I flew (and I didn't start this!) I never flew an FR10 or an F4 but did fly the GA11. True, the GA11 was essentially an F4 but they all had the saw-tooth leading edge which I believe that only a few of the later F4s had. Also, I believe that the original F4s may have had the earlier standard of elevator and aileron hydroboosters for the flying controls which gave lighter control forces in manual although the ailerons, once selected into manual in flight, could not be reselected on. I have flown this mod standard in the F58 (ex-Swiss aircraft).
As for Hunter marks that I flew (and I didn't start this!) I never flew an FR10 or an F4 but did fly the GA11. True, the GA11 was essentially an F4 but they all had the saw-tooth leading edge which I believe that only a few of the later F4s had. Also, I believe that the original F4s may have had the earlier standard of elevator and aileron hydroboosters for the flying controls which gave lighter control forces in manual although the ailerons, once selected into manual in flight, could not be reselected on. I have flown this mod standard in the F58 (ex-Swiss aircraft).
