AIP Overissue
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Odiham
Age: 56
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AIP Overissue
Ladies and Gents. First can I apologise if this has been brought up before but I've not logged on for a while. Having been made redundant on the 1st September, I have recently received from SPVA a letter demanding repayment of over £1880. The letter only gives dates and no reasons or justification for the repayment. I was warned on my last day that CAS has decided that all AIPs from 2006 should be audited. As I had my application not only approved by my OC but unit's PSF, I'm confused how this is my fault. From my point of view, they seem to have changed the goal post denying that NCAMT pt1 is no longer a management qualification. Does the Royal Air Force not have Vicarious Liability. SPVA were not particularly useful and I'm relying on my old units PSF. Has any other Tranche 1 redundancy had any demand and if so how did you correct this? Many thanks for any help.
Surely if you were awarded an AIP for having completed NCAMT Pt 1 then you should be entitled to utilise that money without risk of having to repay it. It is not as if you have been overpaid and deliberately failed to fess up.
Yes, I get the "its tax payers money" retort that will inevitably follow, but it was authorised and paid in good faith iaw extant T&Cs (as were all the failed acquisition monies over the decades that were not required to be repaid). If it is subsequently found not to be iaw the T&Cs at the time, then the individual should not be liable to shoulder the responsibility, and the cost should be written off.
Apart from the MT standing for management training, it has always been considered a management training qualification since its inception as the AACMT course at Hereford in the late 80s, so I fail to see how they could magic up that excuse.
All that said, I would suggest a quick chat with citizens advice or a legal dude to confirm your rights/position in parallel to seeking confirmation from previous hand brake house entities. You may have to pay it back and then sue in the small claims court??
Good luck.
Yes, I get the "its tax payers money" retort that will inevitably follow, but it was authorised and paid in good faith iaw extant T&Cs (as were all the failed acquisition monies over the decades that were not required to be repaid). If it is subsequently found not to be iaw the T&Cs at the time, then the individual should not be liable to shoulder the responsibility, and the cost should be written off.
Apart from the MT standing for management training, it has always been considered a management training qualification since its inception as the AACMT course at Hereford in the late 80s, so I fail to see how they could magic up that excuse.
All that said, I would suggest a quick chat with citizens advice or a legal dude to confirm your rights/position in parallel to seeking confirmation from previous hand brake house entities. You may have to pay it back and then sue in the small claims court??
Good luck.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,797
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AIP was never particulary well managed and it took a lot of digging when I pursued using my second AIP a few years ago, an objective that I never achieved. I recall that the only way for NCA to get an AIP was by the following:
QHCI
Q-SAR (paramedic?)
Q- CSRO dont know if that was updated to SERE
Q-HTI
The FEng and AEOp trades had similar highly specialist qualifications, but as you can see, there were/are very few that you can use. None of them were IIRC management courses. Also you could only claim one AIP per rank level, so although I have two of the above list, I could only claim one AIP. In short it was far from an effective process and the OP story was inevitable dor some almost certainly driven by a PSF person to busy to look up the rules and taking the easy option of 'yes itll be fine unless someone higher up the food chain in the know over-rules me '
In summary, we can sympathise all day ( and I do ) but you are being shafted and I doubt there is much you can do about it. There was another thread here when this was announced some time ago. I think that the Navy and submariners in particulary were the catalyst for this kicking off.
QHCI
Q-SAR (paramedic?)
Q- CSRO dont know if that was updated to SERE
Q-HTI
The FEng and AEOp trades had similar highly specialist qualifications, but as you can see, there were/are very few that you can use. None of them were IIRC management courses. Also you could only claim one AIP per rank level, so although I have two of the above list, I could only claim one AIP. In short it was far from an effective process and the OP story was inevitable dor some almost certainly driven by a PSF person to busy to look up the rules and taking the easy option of 'yes itll be fine unless someone higher up the food chain in the know over-rules me '
In summary, we can sympathise all day ( and I do ) but you are being shafted and I doubt there is much you can do about it. There was another thread here when this was announced some time ago. I think that the Navy and submariners in particulary were the catalyst for this kicking off.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,797
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,797
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Somewhere flat
Age: 68
Posts: 5,565
Likes: 0
Received 45 Likes
on
30 Posts
As a dumb question..... Was the AIP payment taxed as income? If so, then even if it has to be paid back then surely the tax can be reclaimed? I don't know the answers, so feel free to shoot me down.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: midlands
Age: 59
Posts: 172
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You need to get into Government accounting procedures. I believe chapter 17 and look up Estoppel. You had an expectation the money was yours. You used the money and thus would suffer hardship if you had to return. If you can prove you had every right to believe it was your correctly that should give enought doubt to overturn. I won a case for one of my guys in 2001 using the argument and lots of photocopies etc worth a try. Challenge it. Then challenge it then challenge it again.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Odiham
Age: 56
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Many thanks for all the helpful advice. As I'm still looking for a job, £1884 will be difficult to find. PSF at my old unit have said that no decision whether to demand the money back or not has been made. So I wonder why I received a demand? I don't want to go down the legal route but I can't see any other way. Surely the cost of man hours of this "witch hunt" out ways the money returned. Again thanks for the help.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Right here, right now
Posts: 270
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a dumb question..... Was the AIP payment taxed as income?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The letter only gives dates and no reasons or justification for the repayment
I continued to be paid for 2 months after I retired until I told them. They then demanded repayment of a sum that I contested and demanded that they prove it. I got about £25 interest while they faffed around.
Eventually, after I demanded a copy of the pay manual the penny dropped at their end and they 'proved' their calculation which previously they had failed to do.
RS:
I have before me a report written in September referring - in passing - to the AIP matter:
Seek advice from CAB or a friendly lawyer.
Were you, by any chance, at an Army dominated unit where the AIPs were awarded along Army lines?
I have before me a report written in September referring - in passing - to the AIP matter:
As a result of inconsistencies in the way that Additional Incremental Payments have been awarded, an audit is underway going back to 2001, potentially identifying up to ₤30M in overpayments. A total of 16,000 accounts are being checked manually, with the Audit Team to report by the end of the year; however units have been slow in furnishing returns. Debt recovery has been suspended subject to a response from a Ministerial Submission; of the 20% of records that have been audited, 3% have been identified in error (some have been under payments). The Audit is made more complex as some units have aligned with Army policy on APIs which is briefer and open to more liberal interpretation.
Given that you have received a demand for recovery, I suspect that the Minister has directed recovery action. Nonetheless, you received this money over an extended period in good faith (and spent it likewise) and you are being asked to resolve the consequences of the actions (or inactions) of others and will be financially embarrased in the process. It could be argued by the MOD that you are holding monies to which you were not entitled and thus cannot claim to be financially disadvantaged as a result (indeed, you may have benefitted from the interest accruing on these 'overpayments') but, frankly, if you do not agree to pay the monies back, they would need to seek civil recovery action through the Courts, and the outcome of that is far from certain from the MOD's point of view.Seek advice from CAB or a friendly lawyer.
Were you, by any chance, at an Army dominated unit where the AIPs were awarded along Army lines?
Last edited by Whenurhappy; 21st Nov 2012 at 14:04.
Thanks for that - although it doesn't affect me I am surprised that recovery action has been initiated before a Ministerial decision has been made on what is a very sensitive issue.
The debts have been placed on payslips for potential future recovery. No recovery has started until the ministerial decision.
On a plus point a couple of my JRs have had circa 1800 notes each refunded....which to my mind means they will recover the money as the refunds have to be funded somehoew.
On a plus point a couple of my JRs have had circa 1800 notes each refunded....which to my mind means they will recover the money as the refunds have to be funded somehoew.
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Uk
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AIP Overissue
I got an email from psf at the end of september stating that all AIP's from 2006 were being audited and that proof of completing the course i did to gain that AIP needed to be brought to them by no later than mid october. And that if i had failed to supply evidence of completion that they may recover any money gained using it. Did they not atleast contact you asking to provide evidence before a snotty demand for money came through the post?
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Devon UK
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Possibly it would be wise to contact the folks concerned and advise them that if any money is genuinely owed you'd be willing to return it by installments.
Certainly ask them to justify their demands.
If you can show that you've been willing to make repayments it'd be a bugger to force you into one lump sum. Try attending court one rainy Monday. See how they handle non-payment cases.
Certainly ask them to justify their demands.
If you can show that you've been willing to make repayments it'd be a bugger to force you into one lump sum. Try attending court one rainy Monday. See how they handle non-payment cases.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Odiham
Age: 56
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Again many thanks for the replies and advice. I'm still waiting for all the documentation before I push towards the CAB/legal route. As I'm currently unemployed, the courts might get about £1 a month of me. But I've informed my old unit that if the NCAMT PT 1 doesn't count then my appointment of lead acoustic operator 3 years before should count. Would I be in line for a refund? Somehow I doubt it.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 868
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RS,
Assuming from your posts that you are NCA then these were/are the only AIP's specifically available for NCA. Not sure who advised you about NCAMT PT1 (or NCACMT as was) but they were wrong AFAIK. Looks like your Lead Acoustic Operator does count but I don't think you will be able to claim now you are out of the Service
Direct from JSP 754
Assuming from your posts that you are NCA then these were/are the only AIP's specifically available for NCA. Not sure who advised you about NCAMT PT1 (or NCACMT as was) but they were wrong AFAIK. Looks like your Lead Acoustic Operator does count but I don't think you will be able to claim now you are out of the Service
Direct from JSP 754
Trade Group N/A Trades Non-Commissioned Aircrew: WSOp (Aco), WSOp (Cmn), WSOp (EW), WSOp (L) & WSOp (Air Eng)
Q – PI – C
(Sgt only)
Management or trade related S/NVQ Level 4.
Foundation Degree in Applied Aviation Studies (awarded by University of Derby).
Foundation Degree in Professional Aviation Practice (awarded by University of Derby).
Diploma in Information Systems (awarded by the Open University).
Q – PI – D
(all ranks)
Management or trade related S/NVQ Level 4. Any other S/NVQ Level 4 or above that is eligible for funding via the SLC scheme.
Foundation Degree in Professional Aviation Practice (awarded by University of Derby).
Diploma in Information Systems (awarded by the Open University).
In addition the following professional qualifications are deemed acceptable and have been approved by the Non-Commissioned Aircrew Branch Sponsors:
WSOp (Acoustic) and WSOp (Electronic Warfare):
1. Lead Operator (Nimrod MR2).
2. Link Manager (E3).
3. Rack 1 (Nimrod R).
4. Upon completion of the AIC and 18 months instructional duties.
WSOp (Linguist):
1. Rack 1 (Nimrod R).
2. Master Search Operator and Voice Supervisor (Nimrod R).
3. Second Language Qualification.
WSOp (Crewman):
1. Upon completion of the AIC and 18 months instructional duties.
2. SAR Winchmen who are EIEC (Extended Immediate and Emergency Care Qualified – S/NVQ Level 4 status).
3. Upon completion of the QHCI/QHTI Courses and 18 months instructional duties.
WSOp (Air Engineer):
1. Upon completion of the AIC and 18 months instructional duties.
2. CAA accreditation – JAR FCL 4.
Notes:
1. Q-Cat-DS will become a mandatory qualification for Q-PI-A with effect from 01 Apr 06. (Once the training backlog has been overcome).
2. Q-Cat-ADS will become a mandatory qualification for Q-PI-B with effect from 01 Apr 06. (Once the training backlog has been
Q – PI – C
(Sgt only)
Management or trade related S/NVQ Level 4.
Foundation Degree in Applied Aviation Studies (awarded by University of Derby).
Foundation Degree in Professional Aviation Practice (awarded by University of Derby).
Diploma in Information Systems (awarded by the Open University).
Q – PI – D
(all ranks)
Management or trade related S/NVQ Level 4. Any other S/NVQ Level 4 or above that is eligible for funding via the SLC scheme.
Foundation Degree in Professional Aviation Practice (awarded by University of Derby).
Diploma in Information Systems (awarded by the Open University).
In addition the following professional qualifications are deemed acceptable and have been approved by the Non-Commissioned Aircrew Branch Sponsors:
WSOp (Acoustic) and WSOp (Electronic Warfare):
1. Lead Operator (Nimrod MR2).
2. Link Manager (E3).
3. Rack 1 (Nimrod R).
4. Upon completion of the AIC and 18 months instructional duties.
WSOp (Linguist):
1. Rack 1 (Nimrod R).
2. Master Search Operator and Voice Supervisor (Nimrod R).
3. Second Language Qualification.
WSOp (Crewman):
1. Upon completion of the AIC and 18 months instructional duties.
2. SAR Winchmen who are EIEC (Extended Immediate and Emergency Care Qualified – S/NVQ Level 4 status).
3. Upon completion of the QHCI/QHTI Courses and 18 months instructional duties.
WSOp (Air Engineer):
1. Upon completion of the AIC and 18 months instructional duties.
2. CAA accreditation – JAR FCL 4.
Notes:
1. Q-Cat-DS will become a mandatory qualification for Q-PI-A with effect from 01 Apr 06. (Once the training backlog has been overcome).
2. Q-Cat-ADS will become a mandatory qualification for Q-PI-B with effect from 01 Apr 06. (Once the training backlog has been