Libyan mission racked up $11M in hotel bills
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Over the past decade I have spent a considerable amount of time living in tents on operations and much less time in hotels. Ellamy made a nice change from the former and reminded me of the 'bring a bottle' wars we used to do! But my point is that the RAF can suffer under canvas if the situation dictates, however in this case it was more practical to utilise hotac. So comments such as
are just ill-informed garbage.
You lot break my heart telling me all about the necessity of living in a hotel, sleeping on white sheets, eating off white table clothes, and using the Squadron silver ware. You you carry along your Serviette Rack so you can have you own mouth wipe too?
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Genuine question. As we rebrigaded into Expeditionary Air Wings some time ago, did any investment go into the provision of tented/ mobile accomodation and support services or is there a standing assumption that we will deployUK FW only onto well found bases with either barracks or nearby hotel accomodation?
I feared the EAW thing was a bit of politically motivated re-branding but am more than happy to be proved wrong.
I feared the EAW thing was a bit of politically motivated re-branding but am more than happy to be proved wrong.
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The reality is that although it suits the agendas of the other services to portray the RAF as pampered and under worked, the issue is usually driven by aircraft and logistics.
Anyone who has worked on fast jets knows that they are temperamental and need cosseting. Extremes of climate (hot/cold/wet) will quickly make your deployed "wing" useless if they aren't properly protected. In addition there is the matter of logistics. FJ that are warfighting use fuel, weapons and spares at a prodigous rate. You add in the need for a runway to take-off from and all these factors mean you can't deploy to a hide site somewhere in the woods.
I'm sure that you could scour google and think up a scenario where the eng/logs/airfield requirements are filled but there is no accom but it is unlikely to happen, although if it did then the crews would just crack on with it. As another poster said it is all a matter of need and has been proved many, many times in the recent past.
Personally I think that we should look after our people and provide decent accommodation, it is basic leadership, not to mention common sense. If I am flying an aircraft I would prefer it if the guys that worked on it were provided the best rest possible in whatever circumstances they found themselves in. If you are on the ground and an aircraft is throwing weapons around I would suggest a rested and happy crew is far more desirable than a tired and pissed off one. Similarly if you are a pax in our mighty AT or rotary fleets.
Sorry, that was a bit of a rant but people regurgitating the same tired old mantra irritates me.
Orca - Don't know if the EAWs do, probably not, but the JFAC HQ does. Does the RN MCC HQ?
Anyone who has worked on fast jets knows that they are temperamental and need cosseting. Extremes of climate (hot/cold/wet) will quickly make your deployed "wing" useless if they aren't properly protected. In addition there is the matter of logistics. FJ that are warfighting use fuel, weapons and spares at a prodigous rate. You add in the need for a runway to take-off from and all these factors mean you can't deploy to a hide site somewhere in the woods.
I'm sure that you could scour google and think up a scenario where the eng/logs/airfield requirements are filled but there is no accom but it is unlikely to happen, although if it did then the crews would just crack on with it. As another poster said it is all a matter of need and has been proved many, many times in the recent past.
Personally I think that we should look after our people and provide decent accommodation, it is basic leadership, not to mention common sense. If I am flying an aircraft I would prefer it if the guys that worked on it were provided the best rest possible in whatever circumstances they found themselves in. If you are on the ground and an aircraft is throwing weapons around I would suggest a rested and happy crew is far more desirable than a tired and pissed off one. Similarly if you are a pax in our mighty AT or rotary fleets.
Sorry, that was a bit of a rant but people regurgitating the same tired old mantra irritates me.
Orca - Don't know if the EAWs do, probably not, but the JFAC HQ does. Does the RN MCC HQ?
orca,
UK EAWs and FJ units practice deploying to and operating from tented accomodation and operations sites on Ex DEPLOYED TITAN, which is the UK in-house version of a NATO OPEVAL. Not sure when the last one happened - might be a couple of years ago now - but it does happen, usually at Fairford.
Quibbles about costs of MT are just as petty as some of the hotel-bashing. Simple: if you are worried about a £m here or there, don't go bombing countries 1500nm+ from home...!
UK EAWs and FJ units practice deploying to and operating from tented accomodation and operations sites on Ex DEPLOYED TITAN, which is the UK in-house version of a NATO OPEVAL. Not sure when the last one happened - might be a couple of years ago now - but it does happen, usually at Fairford.
Quibbles about costs of MT are just as petty as some of the hotel-bashing. Simple: if you are worried about a £m here or there, don't go bombing countries 1500nm+ from home...!
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I don't think we have a MCC HQ. If you mean the Maritime Battle Staff (from whom a MCC HQ would invariably be picked), they occasionally parade around in camouflage but I have never found out why, after all their back drop is very unlikely to feature temperate vegetation. They also keep a bergen ready due to being at R2, as apparently you can't get home to pack in the 5 days available.
I'm not entirely sure that what they do has any relevance when compared to a simple question as to whether or not we had actually invested in tents. But I suppose this is pprune and one must either take offence or assume agenda whenever possible.
Personally I am outraged but if someone could tell me why and about what that would make Friday night far simpler.
Cheers.
I'm not entirely sure that what they do has any relevance when compared to a simple question as to whether or not we had actually invested in tents. But I suppose this is pprune and one must either take offence or assume agenda whenever possible.
Personally I am outraged but if someone could tell me why and about what that would make Friday night far simpler.
Cheers.
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A quick re-attack if I may.
I've always quite liked the JFAC 'battle tent' or what ever they call it, but never really understood the need for it. After all the free world is littered with CAOCs and armed with a secure telephone, ICC and something like NSWAN surely one can pump out an ATO to anyone in the world...what am I missing?
And yes, you are correct, I am genuinely questioning why the JFAC practises living in tents vice the more traditional 'why the RAF doesn't'.
I've always quite liked the JFAC 'battle tent' or what ever they call it, but never really understood the need for it. After all the free world is littered with CAOCs and armed with a secure telephone, ICC and something like NSWAN surely one can pump out an ATO to anyone in the world...what am I missing?
And yes, you are correct, I am genuinely questioning why the JFAC practises living in tents vice the more traditional 'why the RAF doesn't'.
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Thanks for all the informative replies....
.... Ah sorry plenty of pontification and posturing about requirement etc but no figs.
Sometimes I think this site should be called the Political Prat's ranting Network
.... Ah sorry plenty of pontification and posturing about requirement etc but no figs.
Sometimes I think this site should be called the Political Prat's ranting Network
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Pretty much a word-for-word quote from kipper fleet 2 star circa 1999
"We have to do tents. Makes no economic, or security, sense (SAS et al please note), but if we don't do it, we gonna get put in the spotlight and binned"
Glad that worked out then
"We have to do tents. Makes no economic, or security, sense (SAS et al please note), but if we don't do it, we gonna get put in the spotlight and binned"
Glad that worked out then
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In 2002 I spent most of my final few months in the Air Force living in tents in Muscat and Thumrait.
In Thumrait it was unavoidable because of a genuine shortage of accommodation.
In Muscat it would been possible to take over the Novotel, just outside the main gate at Seeb. It would have cost far less than than all the equipment and personnel required to keep the camp going.
But to show solidarity with our bretheren across the water the tent city stayed.
So you could work a nineteen hour day, flying across five time zones, on minimum crew rest and possibly have to repeat the process the following day.
During the night, you would have crews on diffent flights moving around with lights on and off all the time.
From the Flight Safety point of view it was lunacy, and as we pointed out several times, in gross breach of a GASO.
In Thumrait it was unavoidable because of a genuine shortage of accommodation.
In Muscat it would been possible to take over the Novotel, just outside the main gate at Seeb. It would have cost far less than than all the equipment and personnel required to keep the camp going.
But to show solidarity with our bretheren across the water the tent city stayed.
So you could work a nineteen hour day, flying across five time zones, on minimum crew rest and possibly have to repeat the process the following day.
During the night, you would have crews on diffent flights moving around with lights on and off all the time.
From the Flight Safety point of view it was lunacy, and as we pointed out several times, in gross breach of a GASO.
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Dalek
We probably shared a tent as from memory there was circa 34 of us in there. Getting dressed in the dark produced some interesting sights on occasion.
The fury when the SS exercise aircrew in the tent next door managed to nick our well hidden stash of happy juice. That lovely admin Sgt, he was a helpful chap wasn't h?
Having said all that, i did enjoy BFOT life once I got used to it and prefered it in some ways to individual hotel life.
Would I want to do it again, er, mmmmm.
We probably shared a tent as from memory there was circa 34 of us in there. Getting dressed in the dark produced some interesting sights on occasion.
The fury when the SS exercise aircrew in the tent next door managed to nick our well hidden stash of happy juice. That lovely admin Sgt, he was a helpful chap wasn't h?
Having said all that, i did enjoy BFOT life once I got used to it and prefered it in some ways to individual hotel life.
Would I want to do it again, er, mmmmm.
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Two months to go in RAF. I cadged a lift to the gate, walked to the Novotel and negotiated for a room. About £20. Great nights sleep, pool, plus tennnis court, plus bar.
Looked out at the peasants roughing it.
Pity Auntie Betty didn,t pay
Two months to go in RAF. I cadged a lift to the gate, walked to the Novotel and negotiated for a room. About £20. Great nights sleep, pool, plus tennnis court, plus bar.
Looked out at the peasants roughing it.
Pity Auntie Betty didn,t pay
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Have the RAF become the ‘London Bankers’ of the military world and lost touch with reality? The government statement that ’We are all in it together’ certainly does not appear to exist in many parts of the RAF.
At the best of times that would not be good for joint service teamwork and morale, however in the current financial climate it is even more annoying to hear the RAF constantly trying to justify why they must have things that the other services have been used to doing without in the good times, let alone during the current very bad financial times.
It is about time that the Government wake up and redirect more of their limited resources to those UK armed forces that have not lost touch with reality and appreciate that they belong to an armed force rather than those expecting to be treated like VIP airline staff.
If you do not like aircraft noise, mosquitos, tents, going away from home (unless you have a nice hotel) and must have top notch Health & Safety conditions, then you really should not be in the armed forces. There are many people out there in the other forces who have a more focussed and realistic ‘can do’ attitude and who would be willing to take on your roles with much better flexibility and teamwork.
The RAF PR machine knows that, and that is why their mission for so long appears to have been to try and get rid of the Fleet Air Arm fixed wing force. Thankfully other world Governments who have Harriers/other Navy fixed wing aircraft have not allowed their land based Air Forces to con them into getting rid of their carrier based fixed wing capability. This even includes Italy (despite their current severe financial hardships), as highlighted in the following website: - A tale of two Harriers: How Italy held on to carrier strike - Defence Management
At the best of times that would not be good for joint service teamwork and morale, however in the current financial climate it is even more annoying to hear the RAF constantly trying to justify why they must have things that the other services have been used to doing without in the good times, let alone during the current very bad financial times.
It is about time that the Government wake up and redirect more of their limited resources to those UK armed forces that have not lost touch with reality and appreciate that they belong to an armed force rather than those expecting to be treated like VIP airline staff.
If you do not like aircraft noise, mosquitos, tents, going away from home (unless you have a nice hotel) and must have top notch Health & Safety conditions, then you really should not be in the armed forces. There are many people out there in the other forces who have a more focussed and realistic ‘can do’ attitude and who would be willing to take on your roles with much better flexibility and teamwork.
The RAF PR machine knows that, and that is why their mission for so long appears to have been to try and get rid of the Fleet Air Arm fixed wing force. Thankfully other world Governments who have Harriers/other Navy fixed wing aircraft have not allowed their land based Air Forces to con them into getting rid of their carrier based fixed wing capability. This even includes Italy (despite their current severe financial hardships), as highlighted in the following website: - A tale of two Harriers: How Italy held on to carrier strike - Defence Management
The RAF PR machine knows that, and that is why their mission for so long appears to have been to try and get rid of the Fleet Air Arm fixed wing force.
As for the rest of your ridicuous tirade, it simply doesn't merit a reply. Because it's total bolleaux!
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Gullwings, you obviously come from the same stable as the Senior Officer in Muscat who, as part of a morale boosting speech, uttered the immortal line ' don't try and black mail me with flight safety' 
Superb rant. BZ 
Cost - you would be surprised. The Army set up a tent city at Davis Monthan AFB a few years ago for an Apache exercise, and spent more in doing so than it would have cost to accommodate the entire det in the USAF's very cheap on-base accommodation. Considering they were training for HERRICK, where their accommodation is in air-conditioned blocks, it struck me as classic practice bleeding.
As for Gioia, one of the reasons why a tent city wasn't built is that the (high) cost of the groundworks required to avoid a quagmire would only be recouped over a certain period - and at the start of the operation, when the decision was being made, the detachment was not forecast to be long enough to make the expenditure worthwhile. These decisions were made on the advice of Royal Engineers from J4...
Cost - you would be surprised. The Army set up a tent city at Davis Monthan AFB a few years ago for an Apache exercise, and spent more in doing so than it would have cost to accommodate the entire det in the USAF's very cheap on-base accommodation. Considering they were training for HERRICK, where their accommodation is in air-conditioned blocks, it struck me as classic practice bleeding.
As for Gioia, one of the reasons why a tent city wasn't built is that the (high) cost of the groundworks required to avoid a quagmire would only be recouped over a certain period - and at the start of the operation, when the decision was being made, the detachment was not forecast to be long enough to make the expenditure worthwhile. These decisions were made on the advice of Royal Engineers from J4...