Augusta Westland bid to replace Marine 1
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Agusta Westland bid to replace Marine 1
Merlins, oops AW 101s are back on the board for the USAs presidential Chariot. Not knowing the spec and price differance from the original bid, are we looking at the same turd, but rolled in a differant glitter?
Last edited by Bannock; 19th Sep 2012 at 11:30. Reason: spelling mistook
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It may have won DM but its still a Seaking landing on the lawn. Canada hoovered up what was delivered to uncle Sam for spares because theirs kept breaking. In Canada they use stronger words than Turd not just for merlins but certain subs we sold a well.
Let us hope a procurement type doesn't repeat the faux pas of 20 odd years ago when Marine 1 + ground stations were to be upgraded. After the (UK) company presentation of their unique product, which more than met the MoD (FAA) specifications for Reliability and Performance, a US Colonel took the MoD guy to one side and asked him what he thought. "Crap, don't buy it". They didn't. The MoD man was promptly promoted into the Procurement Policy section (DPP(PM)) where he presumably had little to do if that was his philosophy, and the company lost what would have been their biggest ever order.
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Milo, the VH71 build line closed a few years back, all VH71 were flogged on to Canada as stated above.
However since then, AW has sold VVIP versions of Merlin/AW101 to Turkmenistan, India and also Saudi Arabia. Examples of all 3 of these are in final build at Yeovil at the moment.
Nice of us and Uncle Sam to pay for the development of the 101 for the rest of the world to benefit from. Don't ask about the £280M in overseas aid payments to India though!
However since then, AW has sold VVIP versions of Merlin/AW101 to Turkmenistan, India and also Saudi Arabia. Examples of all 3 of these are in final build at Yeovil at the moment.
Nice of us and Uncle Sam to pay for the development of the 101 for the rest of the world to benefit from. Don't ask about the £280M in overseas aid payments to India though!
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The problem with the VH-71 was not the aircraft per-se, but the way every 3rd Col. was adding his own special gadget to the "absolutely required equipment" list... so that both cost and weight increased past the point of reason.
As long as a more reasonable equipment suite is specified, and then forbidden to be changed from that moment until the aircraft have been in service for at least 5 years, then it should do fine!
After all, the 5 (or so) "support" VH-71s had been delivered, it was the dozen or so "fully-equipped" variants that were bogged down in the "constant re-specification of outfit" cycle that were the death of the program.
As long as a more reasonable equipment suite is specified, and then forbidden to be changed from that moment until the aircraft have been in service for at least 5 years, then it should do fine!
After all, the 5 (or so) "support" VH-71s had been delivered, it was the dozen or so "fully-equipped" variants that were bogged down in the "constant re-specification of outfit" cycle that were the death of the program.
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Saint Jack,
Since we're being pedantic, its AgustaWestland (no space between the two names).
I know, because I was on the original VH71 project!
Since we're being pedantic, its AgustaWestland (no space between the two names).
I know, because I was on the original VH71 project!
Last edited by Lukeafb1; 19th Sep 2012 at 12:01.
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Vh71 sell off
If I remember correctly all 9 test and development and initial batch VH71 aircraft were delivered on time and on budget from AW in the UK to the PRIME contractor Lockheed Martin. It was the extra mission kit demanded by the White House and USMC after the downselect was made that increased the overall time and cost of the project. The aircraft itself or AW (as a subcontractor) were not criticised.
Subsequently after the programme was axed (by which time all the aircraft were under LM charge in the USA) there were a pile of non qualified aircraft sitting in the USA. It made sense to get rid of them (as there were unusable to anyone due to US specific items) to some willing soul.
However given the fact that most of a VH71 isnt the same as a Cormorant, how much use they RCAF are actually going to get without spending serious money is open to debate.
In any case the AW101 is now in prodcution for VVIP customers and should therefore be in a very good position to be reselected for the same mission it had already been selected for, by an independant selection process
Time will tell
DM
Subsequently after the programme was axed (by which time all the aircraft were under LM charge in the USA) there were a pile of non qualified aircraft sitting in the USA. It made sense to get rid of them (as there were unusable to anyone due to US specific items) to some willing soul.
However given the fact that most of a VH71 isnt the same as a Cormorant, how much use they RCAF are actually going to get without spending serious money is open to debate.
In any case the AW101 is now in prodcution for VVIP customers and should therefore be in a very good position to be reselected for the same mission it had already been selected for, by an independant selection process
Time will tell
DM
Last edited by dangermouse; 19th Sep 2012 at 12:47.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
AWST (Ares): Northrop Teams With AgustaWestland For Presidential Helo
Northrop Grumman and AgustaWestland, a Finmeccanica company, recently signed a comprehensive teaming agreement to compete for the proposed U.S. Navy’s Marine One presidential helicopter. The companies will offer a U.S.-built helicopter based on AgustaWestland’s 101 platform for the so-called VXX program, Northrop says.
AgustaWestland and then-partner Lockheed Martin won an earlier iteration of the VXX competition with another 101 variant. That program was canceled earlier this decade after cost overruns and schedule slips.
Analysts say the new partnership makes sense. “It’s a very smart move for Northrop,” says Richard Aboulafia, vice president of the Teal Group consultancy. “It’s difficult to see how any other helicopter than the AW101 can do the job.”
Of other potential candidates, Aboulafia says, “The [Sikorsky] S-92 is a good product, but it’s probably too small for what the VXX people have in mind and the next step up is the CH-47, which is too large. Boeing might offer something else — conceivably even the V-22.” Ospreys have been used for other government officials, other defense analysts note. But, Aboulafia contends, “The 101 is kind of in a sweet spot.”
Northrop says the team joins its experience in developing complex air systems — such as the autonomous Fire Scout and Global Hawk UAVs, as well as the E-2D Advanced Hawkeye, stealthy B-2 bomber and E-8 Joint STARS — with AgustaWestland’s history of delivering “rugged and reliable helicopters.” Paul Meyer, Northrop Aerospace Systems vice president and general manager of advanced programs and technology, says, “While Northrop Grumman has broad expertise in systems integration of large aircraft programs, AgustaWestland has world-leading expertise in global rotorcraft and vertical lift.”
The team also plans to compete for the U.S. Air Force’s combat search and rescue helicopter replacement.
Northrop Grumman and AgustaWestland, a Finmeccanica company, recently signed a comprehensive teaming agreement to compete for the proposed U.S. Navy’s Marine One presidential helicopter. The companies will offer a U.S.-built helicopter based on AgustaWestland’s 101 platform for the so-called VXX program, Northrop says.
AgustaWestland and then-partner Lockheed Martin won an earlier iteration of the VXX competition with another 101 variant. That program was canceled earlier this decade after cost overruns and schedule slips.
Analysts say the new partnership makes sense. “It’s a very smart move for Northrop,” says Richard Aboulafia, vice president of the Teal Group consultancy. “It’s difficult to see how any other helicopter than the AW101 can do the job.”
Of other potential candidates, Aboulafia says, “The [Sikorsky] S-92 is a good product, but it’s probably too small for what the VXX people have in mind and the next step up is the CH-47, which is too large. Boeing might offer something else — conceivably even the V-22.” Ospreys have been used for other government officials, other defense analysts note. But, Aboulafia contends, “The 101 is kind of in a sweet spot.”
Northrop says the team joins its experience in developing complex air systems — such as the autonomous Fire Scout and Global Hawk UAVs, as well as the E-2D Advanced Hawkeye, stealthy B-2 bomber and E-8 Joint STARS — with AgustaWestland’s history of delivering “rugged and reliable helicopters.” Paul Meyer, Northrop Aerospace Systems vice president and general manager of advanced programs and technology, says, “While Northrop Grumman has broad expertise in systems integration of large aircraft programs, AgustaWestland has world-leading expertise in global rotorcraft and vertical lift.”
The team also plans to compete for the U.S. Air Force’s combat search and rescue helicopter replacement.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
And they're off!! Here we go again.....
Defense News: New U.S. Presidential Helicopter Program Kicks Off
A new effort to find a replacement for the aging helicopters that serve the U.S. president has begun with the release Nov. 23 of a draft solicitation aimed at potential competitors.
The request for proposal (RfP) is the first step in the U.S. Navy’s acquisition process to develop the new helicopters under the VXX program. The presidential helicopter fleet is operated by the Marines — hence the well-known “Marine One” call sign of whatever helicopter the president is aboard — but the Navy Department handles procurement and funding of the aircraft.
The aim, according to the request, is to acquire up to 23 operational helicopters, the first of which is to enter service in 2020. The Navy is seeking a proven design as the basis for the VXX. The current presidential fleet is made up of VH-60N “Night Hawks” and VH-3D “Sea Kings,” both produced by Sikorsky.
The new program replaces an earlier effort, also known as VXX, which was canceled in 2009 after dramatic cost and schedule overruns. The earlier program was plagued by numerous requirements changes driven by the Secret Service and the Bush White House. The program, which pitted Sikorsky against Lockheed Martin as prime contractor competitors, was killed by the new Obama administration as an example of wasteful spending, particularly after stinging program criticism by Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz.
Lockheed has since announced it will not bid as a prime on a new VXX program, and instead has partnered with Sikorsky to handle systems development. According to the company, Sikorsky intends to offer an aircraft based on its S-92 model. Other competitors could include Boeing, offering a variant of its H-47 twin-rotor helicopter, and AgustaWestland, partnered with Northrop Grumman on a variant of the AW101 helo.
The draft request, according to Capt. Cate Mueller, “is for the engineering and manufacturing development [EMD] phase of the program, to include three EMD aircraft and four flight test articles, and production options to achieve a total inventory of up to 23 aircraft.” Issuing the draft document, she said, allows the Navy “to solicit and receive feedback from potential bidders on the specification and the contract terms and conditions before release of the final RFP, scheduled for March 2013.” The draft, Mueller added, “does not commit the government to any contract or expenditure of funds, but it allows the government to survey the market environment for potential bidders and to refine the final RFP before its release.” An EMD contract, she said, is expected to be awarded around March 2014.
The contract structure of the VXX program will be for a fixed price incentive-type contract for EMD, and fixed-price type options for low-rate initial production and full rate production. The Pentagon’s 2013 budget submission shows $1.85 billion for the program over 2013 to 2017, with full production procurement taking place in 2015. The draft request does not indicate a required unit price for the VXX helicopter. “That’s the point of competition,” Mueller noted.
The RfP comes roughly a month after the Air Force issued an RFP for the new combat-search-and-rescue helicopter (CSAR), a contract for 112 helos worth up to $6.8 billion. Both the S-92 and AW101 are expected to be solicited for the CSAR competition.
The draft VXX request is available online here.
Defense News: New U.S. Presidential Helicopter Program Kicks Off
A new effort to find a replacement for the aging helicopters that serve the U.S. president has begun with the release Nov. 23 of a draft solicitation aimed at potential competitors.
The request for proposal (RfP) is the first step in the U.S. Navy’s acquisition process to develop the new helicopters under the VXX program. The presidential helicopter fleet is operated by the Marines — hence the well-known “Marine One” call sign of whatever helicopter the president is aboard — but the Navy Department handles procurement and funding of the aircraft.
The aim, according to the request, is to acquire up to 23 operational helicopters, the first of which is to enter service in 2020. The Navy is seeking a proven design as the basis for the VXX. The current presidential fleet is made up of VH-60N “Night Hawks” and VH-3D “Sea Kings,” both produced by Sikorsky.
The new program replaces an earlier effort, also known as VXX, which was canceled in 2009 after dramatic cost and schedule overruns. The earlier program was plagued by numerous requirements changes driven by the Secret Service and the Bush White House. The program, which pitted Sikorsky against Lockheed Martin as prime contractor competitors, was killed by the new Obama administration as an example of wasteful spending, particularly after stinging program criticism by Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz.
Lockheed has since announced it will not bid as a prime on a new VXX program, and instead has partnered with Sikorsky to handle systems development. According to the company, Sikorsky intends to offer an aircraft based on its S-92 model. Other competitors could include Boeing, offering a variant of its H-47 twin-rotor helicopter, and AgustaWestland, partnered with Northrop Grumman on a variant of the AW101 helo.
The draft request, according to Capt. Cate Mueller, “is for the engineering and manufacturing development [EMD] phase of the program, to include three EMD aircraft and four flight test articles, and production options to achieve a total inventory of up to 23 aircraft.” Issuing the draft document, she said, allows the Navy “to solicit and receive feedback from potential bidders on the specification and the contract terms and conditions before release of the final RFP, scheduled for March 2013.” The draft, Mueller added, “does not commit the government to any contract or expenditure of funds, but it allows the government to survey the market environment for potential bidders and to refine the final RFP before its release.” An EMD contract, she said, is expected to be awarded around March 2014.
The contract structure of the VXX program will be for a fixed price incentive-type contract for EMD, and fixed-price type options for low-rate initial production and full rate production. The Pentagon’s 2013 budget submission shows $1.85 billion for the program over 2013 to 2017, with full production procurement taking place in 2015. The draft request does not indicate a required unit price for the VXX helicopter. “That’s the point of competition,” Mueller noted.
The RfP comes roughly a month after the Air Force issued an RFP for the new combat-search-and-rescue helicopter (CSAR), a contract for 112 helos worth up to $6.8 billion. Both the S-92 and AW101 are expected to be solicited for the CSAR competition.
The draft VXX request is available online here.
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Politics
First time around, as GreenKnight stated, it was the ever growing equipment list & modifications that created the cost over runs and contributed to the doom of the project. Certainly wasn't the airframers fault.
Surprised to see no one mention the real reason for the project's demise- the new Obama White House (at that time).
It's no coincidence that this RFP comes out just after the recent election.
Silly though, after the new RFP and selection is completed, the Govt. will likely spend significantly more than if they followed through with the original AW program.
And there's a good chance they end up with the same thing, just much later at even higher cost.
Surprised to see no one mention the real reason for the project's demise- the new Obama White House (at that time).
It's no coincidence that this RFP comes out just after the recent election.
Silly though, after the new RFP and selection is completed, the Govt. will likely spend significantly more than if they followed through with the original AW program.
And there's a good chance they end up with the same thing, just much later at even higher cost.
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Friend worked at Westlands and said it went like this, we need to add a box in the avionics bay, ok what does it do.... Sorry classified... Ok what size, dimensions and weight.... Sorry classified.... What power does it need.....sorry classified
Last edited by NutLoose; 25th Nov 2012 at 22:49.
I wouldn’t put money on the 101 being selected for the VXX program this time.
Leaders Bush, Blair and Berlusconi have been assigned to history and it is worth noting that Lockheed Martin Systems Integration was the prime for the Team US101 win in 2005, not AW. For the current VXX Program, LM is no longer the prime contractor and has teamed up with Sikorsky, whose Presidential helicopter supply and support goes back some 55-years.’
I suspect the security clearance requirements of all involved in the Presidential helicopter program and through life support are mind boggling. But that aside, do you really think that a President who has played down the UK-US special relationship and even had Churchill’s bust removed from the Oval Office is going to select an Italian/British helicopter firm over two of the biggest home grown providers to the DoD, especially when both fear sequestration cuts in the coming years’.
If you are still not sure, go take a look at the outcome of the USAF Aerial Tanker replacement program.
Leaders Bush, Blair and Berlusconi have been assigned to history and it is worth noting that Lockheed Martin Systems Integration was the prime for the Team US101 win in 2005, not AW. For the current VXX Program, LM is no longer the prime contractor and has teamed up with Sikorsky, whose Presidential helicopter supply and support goes back some 55-years.’
I suspect the security clearance requirements of all involved in the Presidential helicopter program and through life support are mind boggling. But that aside, do you really think that a President who has played down the UK-US special relationship and even had Churchill’s bust removed from the Oval Office is going to select an Italian/British helicopter firm over two of the biggest home grown providers to the DoD, especially when both fear sequestration cuts in the coming years’.
If you are still not sure, go take a look at the outcome of the USAF Aerial Tanker replacement program.
Last edited by Hilife; 28th Nov 2012 at 12:54.
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I thought I read somewhere that Boeing had signed an agreement with AW to build the 101 in Philly under licence?
As for the Mission System integrator - Northrop Grumman.. Hmm would this be the Norhtrop Grumman that were part of the Airbus bid for the KC-X Tanker bid?
As I recall the original V-XX program was scrapped for financial reasons, but Sikorsky's main objection to the AW win, was that the AW101 didn't have adequate side impact crashworthiness to meet some obscure regulation or other.. but oddly enough the S-92 did?
Chances of a European manufacturer beating 2 american bidders? Forget capability, forget money, forget everything.. Unless it is born in the USA, then its not going to win. The Tanker program was a prime example of choosing a less capable, weaker "home" bid, over a foreign effort.
As for the Mission System integrator - Northrop Grumman.. Hmm would this be the Norhtrop Grumman that were part of the Airbus bid for the KC-X Tanker bid?
As I recall the original V-XX program was scrapped for financial reasons, but Sikorsky's main objection to the AW win, was that the AW101 didn't have adequate side impact crashworthiness to meet some obscure regulation or other.. but oddly enough the S-92 did?
Chances of a European manufacturer beating 2 american bidders? Forget capability, forget money, forget everything.. Unless it is born in the USA, then its not going to win. The Tanker program was a prime example of choosing a less capable, weaker "home" bid, over a foreign effort.
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If POTUS wants to fly around in the second or third best helicopter because it's politically expedient, then good luck to him. If he wants a three engined (the only contender that is) crashworthy, multiple system redundant, comfortable (see the pilot comments in rotorheads about the S92 vibes) and less critically, the best looking aircraft; AW101 it is.
Don't forget the standard Merlin doesn't have to bend the rules using grammar to achieve "run dry"!
Cheers now
Don't forget the standard Merlin doesn't have to bend the rules using grammar to achieve "run dry"!
Cheers now