Medal for the wounded?
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,307
Likes: 2
From: South Africa
Many get wounded doing very brave things and do not get written up - what happens when the Platoon Cdr or NCO cops it? Who does the citation then?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Joined: Dec 2002
Aviation Qualifications: Military (Retired)
Posts: 16,700
Likes: 54
From: Lincolnshire
Ian, with over 6,000 airmen on a raid I think the numbers tell their own story.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Gaining a RAF Pilot's Flying Brevet in WWII
My two-cents' worth (in #2908, p. 146) may be of interest (in that it is illustrative of the sort of incident in which it could be awarded).
Never heard a word about it anywhere in India afterwards, nor in UK when I got back in '46, nor in RAF '49 - '72.
But my little gold lace stripe was a fact. Where is it now ? Lord knows !
Danny42C
Never heard a word about it anywhere in India afterwards, nor in UK when I got back in '46, nor in RAF '49 - '72.
But my little gold lace stripe was a fact. Where is it now ? Lord knows !
Danny42C
Last edited by Danny42C; 27th August 2012 at 19:48. Reason: Change Title.
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,858
Likes: 18
From: SW England
Danny, I was indeed interested in your account of getting your wound stripe. I knew it existed, but it seems to have been issued very sparingly - in 30 odd years of dealing in militaria I am pretty sure I have never come across one. The long service stripes (inverted chevrons) were abolished in 1950 so I wonder if the wound stripe went at the same time.
Ian and P-N - drifting a bit on the subject of aircrew awards, it is surprising that the DFC (officers and warrant officers) was awarded 20,354 times in WW2, whereas the DFM (flight sergeants and below) was awarded only 6,637 times. Given the number of sergeants in Bomber Command crews in particular, this disparity is certainly strange. Since the pilot of a multi-crew aircraft was more likely to be an officer than the other crew members, could this be the reason? Perish the thought that pilots were considered more deserving of medals than the rest
Ian and P-N - drifting a bit on the subject of aircrew awards, it is surprising that the DFC (officers and warrant officers) was awarded 20,354 times in WW2, whereas the DFM (flight sergeants and below) was awarded only 6,637 times. Given the number of sergeants in Bomber Command crews in particular, this disparity is certainly strange. Since the pilot of a multi-crew aircraft was more likely to be an officer than the other crew members, could this be the reason? Perish the thought that pilots were considered more deserving of medals than the rest
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,174
Likes: 7
From: UK
Perish the thought that pilots were considered more deserving of medals than the rest
Takes cover behind the settee.
Last edited by Fareastdriver; 28th August 2012 at 09:24.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Joined: Dec 2002
Aviation Qualifications: Military (Retired)
Posts: 16,700
Likes: 54
From: Lincolnshire
FED, take cover indeed you should.
Personally I think the Captain got the credit as the rest of the crew had no choice but to follow. OTOH if the rest of the crew would have pressed on but the pilot chose not to . . .
Undoubtedly where the pilots did deserve the medals was when they brought the kite home safely or kept it up long enough for the crew to bail out and frequently lost their lives in the process.
TTN, you would need to establish the proportion of NCO to Officer pilots. Also don't forget that Master aircrew were drawn from the pool of NCOs which would reduce the number of eligible SNCO Pilots whereas the officer cadre would cover the whole range of ranks.
Personally I think the Captain got the credit as the rest of the crew had no choice but to follow. OTOH if the rest of the crew would have pressed on but the pilot chose not to . . .
Undoubtedly where the pilots did deserve the medals was when they brought the kite home safely or kept it up long enough for the crew to bail out and frequently lost their lives in the process.
TTN, you would need to establish the proportion of NCO to Officer pilots. Also don't forget that Master aircrew were drawn from the pool of NCOs which would reduce the number of eligible SNCO Pilots whereas the officer cadre would cover the whole range of ranks.
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 18,633
Likes: 1,072
From: Downeast
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
From: Hants
I can confirm that those injured in theatre but repatriated continue to receive OA until their tour would have finished if they are still receiving treatment and thus also qualify for the Campaign Medal.
What we need to remember is that "Joint" means "Army": UK doesn't allow folk to qualify for Campaign Medals on day one in Theatre in order to deny it to visitors, and discourage military tourism (of which there is far too much in any case). The Army has to be reminded about the implications for aircrew undergoing greater risks in their frequent flights in and out in order to achieve the qualifying service. All aviation sorties are risky to some extent - the attitude towards air accidents shows a typical Army disregard for this fact.
I suspect that the real difficulty about a UK Purple Heart or similar would go beyond the complexities of qualifying wounds (and don't forget the bizarre suggestion that defusing an IED does not qualify as "in the face of the Enemy" if Terry has already scarpered) but is rather more alarming. To issue such an award would be to run the risk of acknowledging the very high number of wounded - not just the seriously wounded (defined as life-changeing injuries). The current line is that statistics for all wounds cannot be gathered as minor wounds not requiring repatriation are not distinguished from other injuries not attributable to enemy action. (and what about an injury sustained whilst diving for cover from incoming IDF or as a result of an RTA when a vehicle in a convoy hits an IED?) Any sort of wound stripe would blow this obfuscation out of the water.
The US Forces are still sufficiently large that it is possible to spend an entire career entirely honourably never hearing a shot fired in anger. The problem with the UK is that by and large the pressure is on the same supporting units to go again and again. One suspects that the greater the exposure the greater the risk - and the higher numbers of injuries in particular units. This is not a statistic anybody wants advertised either.
I recall being shown in 2009 a statisical analysis of Operational Honours with the question of whether there seemed a disproportionate number of officers. The answer was "of course" and it came down to the quality of the write up.
I recall that the Army have a black economy of visitors; the absolute cap in numbers meant that drivers and ADCs and even majors and Lt Cols were doing short tours and job shares in order to get the Herrick tick in the box. By contrast the RAF and RN simply got on with their jobs and went when sent instead of clamouring to go. There might be a real danger of a wound award being used as a further selection criterion for army promotion. Like other posters I do not suggest that there is any risk of deliberate self harm or of increased carelessness, but I do think that this would be an unhelpful distinction.
What we need to remember is that "Joint" means "Army": UK doesn't allow folk to qualify for Campaign Medals on day one in Theatre in order to deny it to visitors, and discourage military tourism (of which there is far too much in any case). The Army has to be reminded about the implications for aircrew undergoing greater risks in their frequent flights in and out in order to achieve the qualifying service. All aviation sorties are risky to some extent - the attitude towards air accidents shows a typical Army disregard for this fact.
I suspect that the real difficulty about a UK Purple Heart or similar would go beyond the complexities of qualifying wounds (and don't forget the bizarre suggestion that defusing an IED does not qualify as "in the face of the Enemy" if Terry has already scarpered) but is rather more alarming. To issue such an award would be to run the risk of acknowledging the very high number of wounded - not just the seriously wounded (defined as life-changeing injuries). The current line is that statistics for all wounds cannot be gathered as minor wounds not requiring repatriation are not distinguished from other injuries not attributable to enemy action. (and what about an injury sustained whilst diving for cover from incoming IDF or as a result of an RTA when a vehicle in a convoy hits an IED?) Any sort of wound stripe would blow this obfuscation out of the water.
The US Forces are still sufficiently large that it is possible to spend an entire career entirely honourably never hearing a shot fired in anger. The problem with the UK is that by and large the pressure is on the same supporting units to go again and again. One suspects that the greater the exposure the greater the risk - and the higher numbers of injuries in particular units. This is not a statistic anybody wants advertised either.
I recall being shown in 2009 a statisical analysis of Operational Honours with the question of whether there seemed a disproportionate number of officers. The answer was "of course" and it came down to the quality of the write up.
I recall that the Army have a black economy of visitors; the absolute cap in numbers meant that drivers and ADCs and even majors and Lt Cols were doing short tours and job shares in order to get the Herrick tick in the box. By contrast the RAF and RN simply got on with their jobs and went when sent instead of clamouring to go. There might be a real danger of a wound award being used as a further selection criterion for army promotion. Like other posters I do not suggest that there is any risk of deliberate self harm or of increased carelessness, but I do think that this would be an unhelpful distinction.
Last edited by fawkes; 28th August 2012 at 13:31. Reason: poor spelling
