"New" holding procedures
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From: The Winchester
Trouble is Beags, (and I know as an ex IRE I'm about to utter heresy), there's a danger of turning things into art forms that are not worthy of the same.
For many of us now the now approved method of entering the hold, even with a CAA checker sat behind you in the sim, as well as your company's own approved examiner (as happened to me recently, deep joy) , is to select where you want to hold in the FMC, type the inbound Course and whether it's a left or right pattern in the box and execute........and in all honesty in the real world when the chips are down ( yes, even in the States
) as long as your join keeps you in the protected area they really don't care about how you do so.................
It may not help people pass the CPL IR and I know what has to be taught has to be taught, but ..............
For many of us now the now approved method of entering the hold, even with a CAA checker sat behind you in the sim, as well as your company's own approved examiner (as happened to me recently, deep joy) , is to select where you want to hold in the FMC, type the inbound Course and whether it's a left or right pattern in the box and execute........and in all honesty in the real world when the chips are down ( yes, even in the States
) as long as your join keeps you in the protected area they really don't care about how you do so.................It may not help people pass the CPL IR and I know what has to be taught has to be taught, but ..............
Joined: May 1999
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From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
...there's a danger of turning things into art forms that are not worthy of the same.
One old duffer used to have some complicated trigonometrical solution for working out the time to turn after the overhead at the limits of Sector 3 joins. To which the rest of us would say "Just count a couple of crocodiles, turn, then restart the watch when you go abeam. Then refine it when you're next inbound to the beacon!"
I have to say that teaching this stuff was not my favourite activity!
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From: Germany
Trouble is Beags, (and I know as an ex IRE I'm about to utter heresy), there's a danger of turning things into art forms that are not worthy of the same.
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2009
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From: Wherever it is this month
I can safely say that no RAF FJ or basic training types can enter a hold by punching buttons on a FMS. Therefore the manual way of doing it is of some small interest to a few of us! BEagle, thankyou for your patience in answering; with any luck a bit more KISS will be forthcoming from the CIREs out there when the 'new' holds are universally applied.
All IRT candidates out there, particularly those in the clutches of 22 Gp - join your next hold straight in and if the IRE pulls you up on it, point him at the FIH! The holding revolution starts here!
All IRT candidates out there, particularly those in the clutches of 22 Gp - join your next hold straight in and if the IRE pulls you up on it, point him at the FIH! The holding revolution starts here!
Last edited by Easy Street; 16th August 2012 at 22:03.
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From: UK
Er... isn't it 1x the drift inbound & 3x drift outbound? At least that's what I was taught & what I used on my civvie IR a couple of weeks ago (& the examiner seemed quite happy).
Standing by to be corrected & chastised for being a saddo...
Standing by to be corrected & chastised for being a saddo...
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From: Southern Europe
Beags,
Never said this before, but I have to pick you up on a point of order. The phrase you were looking for is "Complete and utter balleaux".
Apart from that, 4 x the drift was the taught technique on the F4 IRE course in January 1985. That said, I never saw anyone use it. The REAL technique was fly the headings on the plate and fudge it on the inbound leg to hit the fix.
You couldn't do it in a jet that didn't tell you drift and you didn't need to in a jet that did. Hence, you're absolutely right, is was complete and utter bolleaux.
Anyway, am I right in thinking the approved technique for flyers of airliners is:
4 across on the inbound leg?
As ever,
Courtney
Never said this before, but I have to pick you up on a point of order. The phrase you were looking for is "Complete and utter balleaux".
Apart from that, 4 x the drift was the taught technique on the F4 IRE course in January 1985. That said, I never saw anyone use it. The REAL technique was fly the headings on the plate and fudge it on the inbound leg to hit the fix.
You couldn't do it in a jet that didn't tell you drift and you didn't need to in a jet that did. Hence, you're absolutely right, is was complete and utter bolleaux.
Anyway, am I right in thinking the approved technique for flyers of airliners is:
4 across on the inbound leg?
As ever,
Courtney
Last edited by Courtney Mil; 20th August 2012 at 18:04.
Joined: May 1999
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From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Anyway, am I right in thinking the approved technique for flyers of airliners is:
4 across on the inbound leg?
4 across on the inbound leg?
Apply 1 x drift inbound (when you think about it, you fly the heading which corresponds to the inbound track, so it's just like normal pilot navigation).
Because you fly the 2 turns at 25° AoB or Rate 1 (whichever needs less bank), no drift compensation is used during the minute-ish of each turn. So, to compensate, 3 x drift outbound is used, so that hopefully after turning back inbound you'll end up pretty well on the defining inbound course.
I used to hate this stuff!
At least TACAN holds are also defined by DME, so you don't have the added mental faff of the '4 minute hold' for which to try to compensate.....
Last edited by BEagle; 20th August 2012 at 19:34.
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From: Southern Europe
Chuckles quietly. Is 25° AoB a rate one turn? Exactly?
OK 4 down then. That's always an easy one in the DM.
I didn't invent the technique, but what's the difference. Four elemnts to the hold, so somewhere you have to a add 4 x the drift. To be honest, I can't defend this way of doing it, re my previous post. If you've got good kit, you don't really need to worry about it. And let's face it, eve the F3 could cope with that on its own.
But when the kit's broken or the Co's finish the crossword, I'll bet my idea will work.
If anyone ever bothered with it.
If I have any more good ideas, I'll let you know.
OK 4 down then. That's always an easy one in the DM.
I didn't invent the technique, but what's the difference. Four elemnts to the hold, so somewhere you have to a add 4 x the drift. To be honest, I can't defend this way of doing it, re my previous post. If you've got good kit, you don't really need to worry about it. And let's face it, eve the F3 could cope with that on its own.
But when the kit's broken or the Co's finish the crossword, I'll bet my idea will work.
If anyone ever bothered with it.
If I have any more good ideas, I'll let you know.
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
If you've got good kit, you don't really need to worry about it.
1 x drift inbound, 3 x drift outbound worked in both the VC10 and the Piper Cherokee.
As for the AoB which gives Rate One, it's θ = arc tan 0.0027463 V, where V is the TAS in knots. So at 210KTAS it would be 30°, hence you'd use 25° for the turns. Whereas at 90KTAS, Rate One would be 14°, so that's what you'd use. At 170KTAS, Rate One equates exactly to 25° AoB....
Last edited by BEagle; 20th August 2012 at 20:57.
