Incoming - H4H etc, coming under fire.
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I still cannot fathom why we do not at least have one military hospital that serves veterans too,
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Bryn Parry has done a great job with helping the troops injured, I take my hat off to him and I am staggered by the energy and enthusiasm and commitment he has bought to this. It must have been his worse nightmare, after firing himself up all those years ago, now having to defend himself on national TV against an enthusiastic, personable and articulate former Marine. But I cannot see why H4H would need to spend £20 millions on a grade 2 listed building when there are so many veterans out there in need of limbs, ongoing training, home services etc. The defence put forward that it showed the parents that only the very best was on offer was frankly, nuts (Grays Lane anyone? I don’t recall that being criticised as ‘unfit’ and it cost a fraction of that amount). Also, there must be dozens of NHS facilities being closed down that are far more suitable for clinical needs, and far cheaper. I have chipped in, like millions of others, and I did so in the hope that I wouldn't be providing a corporate Grade 2 bauble that the state couldn’t be bothered to keep in good order anyway.
The follow up help to ALL veterans and the resources available to them shouldn’t be carved up and segmented as it seems to be doing. The State has a duty of care that should transcend anything that individual charities achieve for those who are harmed in its (and our) name. Farming it out to a charity, however well meaning and efficient, in such a hands off way isn't acceptable. There are not charities supporting gay and lesbian servicemen, ethnic servicemen – those are causes that the MoD now holds dear itself – so why not also, injured servicemen? This should be about veterans getting help, not one charity being better or more relevant than another. Its not a very edifying sight, the idea that veteran ‘A’ is better than Veteran ‘B’ because he was injured in Conflict ‘A’, ‘B’ or ‘C’ and its not a nice thought that it is only until he or she is discharged anyway.
For its part of course, the state prefers the public to engage in supporting charitable work for the troops because that’s got to be better than the public spending time complaining. The brutal truth is people like to help, they like to feel they’re doing something useful and the state would rather dish out MBE and platitudes about ‘sterling work’ etc than always be on the back foot and defending itself (idle minds, devils work). And the public too, wants an individual charity that it can identify with, and rightly so. H4H has captured the mood of the moment and it has filled a gap that RBL could never have done with such skill, empathy, agility, acumen and spirit. The people have made it their own. But there is becoming a sense of dislocation about it all. I hope it remains the people's choice, the slightly oddball but brilliantly in tune, left field choice and does not take on the state committee room whiff that many accuse the RBL of having, unfairly I think.
I am by instinct, an RBL supporter, I never used to be, but I know now what good it also does over the long term, quietly in the background and for lots more. Sure, it is now in some ways a job club. H4H in contrast, is the shiny speedboat, darting here and there, reacting with lightning speed to fast changing needs. RBL is the ageing cruise liner, ploughing the seas with momentum and energy and doing what it knows is best and with seeming unaccountability. There is a place for both, but they need to work together for the troops and not for themselves. And the final responsibility has to lie with the State. For it to be able to walk away and point to any charity as being the panacea OR the fault in the aftermath of its decision making process is probably the real story here.
The follow up help to ALL veterans and the resources available to them shouldn’t be carved up and segmented as it seems to be doing. The State has a duty of care that should transcend anything that individual charities achieve for those who are harmed in its (and our) name. Farming it out to a charity, however well meaning and efficient, in such a hands off way isn't acceptable. There are not charities supporting gay and lesbian servicemen, ethnic servicemen – those are causes that the MoD now holds dear itself – so why not also, injured servicemen? This should be about veterans getting help, not one charity being better or more relevant than another. Its not a very edifying sight, the idea that veteran ‘A’ is better than Veteran ‘B’ because he was injured in Conflict ‘A’, ‘B’ or ‘C’ and its not a nice thought that it is only until he or she is discharged anyway.
For its part of course, the state prefers the public to engage in supporting charitable work for the troops because that’s got to be better than the public spending time complaining. The brutal truth is people like to help, they like to feel they’re doing something useful and the state would rather dish out MBE and platitudes about ‘sterling work’ etc than always be on the back foot and defending itself (idle minds, devils work). And the public too, wants an individual charity that it can identify with, and rightly so. H4H has captured the mood of the moment and it has filled a gap that RBL could never have done with such skill, empathy, agility, acumen and spirit. The people have made it their own. But there is becoming a sense of dislocation about it all. I hope it remains the people's choice, the slightly oddball but brilliantly in tune, left field choice and does not take on the state committee room whiff that many accuse the RBL of having, unfairly I think.
I am by instinct, an RBL supporter, I never used to be, but I know now what good it also does over the long term, quietly in the background and for lots more. Sure, it is now in some ways a job club. H4H in contrast, is the shiny speedboat, darting here and there, reacting with lightning speed to fast changing needs. RBL is the ageing cruise liner, ploughing the seas with momentum and energy and doing what it knows is best and with seeming unaccountability. There is a place for both, but they need to work together for the troops and not for themselves. And the final responsibility has to lie with the State. For it to be able to walk away and point to any charity as being the panacea OR the fault in the aftermath of its decision making process is probably the real story here.
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Al R,
You make some good points there.
What I can not abide is that a charity, who are helping people, are being criticised in such a negative fashion. If H4H were being corrupt, or totally incompetent, then I could understand criticisms. H4H are not incompetent. H4H were cretaed to aid those injured in Iraq & Afghanistan. As far as I am aware H4H work with other charities, including the RBL, to provide assistance elsewhere - where possible.
Each and every person has their own beliefs as to where money should be targeted. It is totally unfair to criticise people who have assisted so many. H4H do not have unlimited funds, so are able to assist only so many persons.
As for the £20 million spent on a Grade 2 listed building at Tedworth. Any idea why? H4H got into the fund raising business in the first place to allow the building of specialist facilities which MoD said it could not afford. Then the MOD decide to shut all the hospitals (well, they already had closed a number). Two things about the buildings at Tidworth are firstly the surroundings which are perfect for the need. Secondly are the facilities, which include the proximity to other charities at the Hub.
I actually believe that all of us should really be asking whether the MOD and Government have been using H4H funds to provide infrastructure that they shoudl be providing. By doing this the MOD and Government are depriving the injured of funds.
Perhaps one could argue that H4H have been over reliant on the MOD for advice. The MOD will obviously use H4H to their own ends. I would have done exactly the same as the H4H team; after all I am not an expert in what is required. The bloody MOD should be. It is a national disgrace that the Government that wilfully gives money to other nations is unwilling to take responsibility for the military who have fought for their own country.
You make some good points there.
What I can not abide is that a charity, who are helping people, are being criticised in such a negative fashion. If H4H were being corrupt, or totally incompetent, then I could understand criticisms. H4H are not incompetent. H4H were cretaed to aid those injured in Iraq & Afghanistan. As far as I am aware H4H work with other charities, including the RBL, to provide assistance elsewhere - where possible.
Each and every person has their own beliefs as to where money should be targeted. It is totally unfair to criticise people who have assisted so many. H4H do not have unlimited funds, so are able to assist only so many persons.
As for the £20 million spent on a Grade 2 listed building at Tedworth. Any idea why? H4H got into the fund raising business in the first place to allow the building of specialist facilities which MoD said it could not afford. Then the MOD decide to shut all the hospitals (well, they already had closed a number). Two things about the buildings at Tidworth are firstly the surroundings which are perfect for the need. Secondly are the facilities, which include the proximity to other charities at the Hub.
I actually believe that all of us should really be asking whether the MOD and Government have been using H4H funds to provide infrastructure that they shoudl be providing. By doing this the MOD and Government are depriving the injured of funds.
Perhaps one could argue that H4H have been over reliant on the MOD for advice. The MOD will obviously use H4H to their own ends. I would have done exactly the same as the H4H team; after all I am not an expert in what is required. The bloody MOD should be. It is a national disgrace that the Government that wilfully gives money to other nations is unwilling to take responsibility for the military who have fought for their own country.
Last edited by hval; 10th Aug 2012 at 12:33. Reason: Punctuation
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To tell you the truth I am outraged and livid at such criticisms levied against H4H. In my opinion the persons doing so are scum (perhaps a bit harsh, as they will be desperate for treatment).
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Shack37,
Looking back at your comment to my comment I suspect you are correct.
Did you read the letter from H4H above?
I really do feel that people, particularly the media (BBC, Daily Outrage, et al) are doing H4H an injustice. How many fewer persons would be receiving treatment without them? The Government and MOD certainly aren't going to step in and take over if H4H stop existing.
Looking back at your comment to my comment I suspect you are correct.
Did you read the letter from H4H above?
The individuals who have chosen to speak out against H4H today state that they have not received the support they required from us. In each of these cases we have provided significant support, some as recently as within the last 9 months. We can only assume that, as the funding is sometimes administered by a third party, these individuals are unaware that the support they have received has come from Help for Heroes.
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It is a national disgrace that the Government that wilfully gives money to other nations is unwilling to take responsibility for the military who have fought for their own country.
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hval
I do agree with the points you're making re Government and MOD sloping shoulders and being content to let H4H etc take the weight. Nobody can deny that H4H are doing a tremendous job.
In this case the BBC and "some investigative journalists" got wind of comments made by some vets and their families. I believe the vets genuinely thought they were being unfairly treated (no pun intended) after discharge from their service.
To be fair to the BBC, in this case they did provide Bryn Perry with a platform to answer the complaints which he did very well.
I really do feel that people, particularly the media (BBC, Daily Outrage, et al) are doing H4H an injustice. How many fewer persons would be receiving treatment without them? The Government and MOD certainly aren't going to step in and take over if H4H stop existing.
In this case the BBC and "some investigative journalists" got wind of comments made by some vets and their families. I believe the vets genuinely thought they were being unfairly treated (no pun intended) after discharge from their service.
To be fair to the BBC, in this case they did provide Bryn Perry with a platform to answer the complaints which he did very well.
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Shack37,
I totally agree that those who are injured should not suffer. I have never said that they shouldn't get the treatment they need.
I believe that H4H are getting somewhat harsh treatment for something they are not responsible for, and for which they are doing their best to help with. Why pick on H4H in the first place? Who sent these people to war? Who is responsible for them? What about the Military Covenant that this government and the past one promised to uphold? it sure as heck was not H4H. H4H have gone out their way to help as many persons as is possible. They aren't perfect, but they do a very good job.
H4H have limited funds. H4H are trying to lay down roots for the future, when they may longer exist. After all, H4H came in to existance for Iraq & for Afghanistan only. H4H already provide funding to other charities & organisations. H4H have insufficient funds to help everyone, however much they might wish to help everyone.
I totally agree that those who are injured should not suffer. I have never said that they shouldn't get the treatment they need.
I believe that H4H are getting somewhat harsh treatment for something they are not responsible for, and for which they are doing their best to help with. Why pick on H4H in the first place? Who sent these people to war? Who is responsible for them? What about the Military Covenant that this government and the past one promised to uphold? it sure as heck was not H4H. H4H have gone out their way to help as many persons as is possible. They aren't perfect, but they do a very good job.
H4H have limited funds. H4H are trying to lay down roots for the future, when they may longer exist. After all, H4H came in to existance for Iraq & for Afghanistan only. H4H already provide funding to other charities & organisations. H4H have insufficient funds to help everyone, however much they might wish to help everyone.
Last edited by hval; 10th Aug 2012 at 11:44. Reason: To add a further paragraph. God, don't I waffle
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Having watched Newsnight I came away with the following views:
1. Government aren't doing enough and probably would have done even less without H4H taking the lead.
2. H4H have done an excellent publicity job and have had to make tough calls on prioritising spending which inevitably, will not satisfy everybody.
3. Philip Hammond came across poorly, didn't answer the questions and lacked sincerity. Any surprises?
4. My own research indicates that RBL has continued to raise more money year on year (in the region of 100m a year), H4H has raised 120m over 4 or 5 years. Conclusion: H4H has raised the profile of the issues, which has had a net benefit for all service charities.
In my opinion, charity is letting the Government off the hook however, my only interest is in the effective treatment of our injured. Without H4H, the Government would never have got anything done in time, then would have cancelled the project because we're leaving Afgan. For me, however uncomfortable to watch, this publicity will hopefully help H4H reassess their spending priorities and will not dampen their enthusiasm to continue their excellent work.
1. Government aren't doing enough and probably would have done even less without H4H taking the lead.
2. H4H have done an excellent publicity job and have had to make tough calls on prioritising spending which inevitably, will not satisfy everybody.
3. Philip Hammond came across poorly, didn't answer the questions and lacked sincerity. Any surprises?
4. My own research indicates that RBL has continued to raise more money year on year (in the region of 100m a year), H4H has raised 120m over 4 or 5 years. Conclusion: H4H has raised the profile of the issues, which has had a net benefit for all service charities.
In my opinion, charity is letting the Government off the hook however, my only interest is in the effective treatment of our injured. Without H4H, the Government would never have got anything done in time, then would have cancelled the project because we're leaving Afgan. For me, however uncomfortable to watch, this publicity will hopefully help H4H reassess their spending priorities and will not dampen their enthusiasm to continue their excellent work.
The issue of military hospitals has been discussed before, my suggestion is to have one attached to the QE, in that, they would have access to all the facilities of a major hospital such as multi disciplinary patient care, which the critically injured require, but be in a military environment. The flip side of this is, is that, non military people can see the effect that war, entered into by politicans, has on people of there own ages or of their children.
The argument against dedicated military hospitals are that they are too small, will NOT be able to provide ALL the services required by the poly trauma patient requires. In this I do exclude e team at Bastion, but they are providing resuscitive damage control/limitation surgery before CCAST bring he patients home to the UK.
Charities should also be looked at in the terms of administration costs, in the how much is actually reaching the people they are meant to help, how much are executives paid. H4H and the RBL plus all the other service charities need to get together behind closed doors and have someone bang their heads together until a common focus is produced for ill and injured people and their families. This is not, and should never should be a 'willey waving' contest as people and famillies futures are at risk.
The NHS should be told, not requested, that veterans have priority in the line for care. Even such simple things as adding them onto a clinic appointments list, so what the clinic is open longer. An easy way to identify a veteran is to add a letter to their NHS number, which at present is all numerical, which would instantly identify them as requiring priority care. No doubt there would be some who would say that's unfair, to them I say, pick up a soldier sailors or airmans kit, walk across a field in a combat zone, won't do it, then tough, get behind the serviceman/woman.
Regards
Air pig
The argument against dedicated military hospitals are that they are too small, will NOT be able to provide ALL the services required by the poly trauma patient requires. In this I do exclude e team at Bastion, but they are providing resuscitive damage control/limitation surgery before CCAST bring he patients home to the UK.
Charities should also be looked at in the terms of administration costs, in the how much is actually reaching the people they are meant to help, how much are executives paid. H4H and the RBL plus all the other service charities need to get together behind closed doors and have someone bang their heads together until a common focus is produced for ill and injured people and their families. This is not, and should never should be a 'willey waving' contest as people and famillies futures are at risk.
The NHS should be told, not requested, that veterans have priority in the line for care. Even such simple things as adding them onto a clinic appointments list, so what the clinic is open longer. An easy way to identify a veteran is to add a letter to their NHS number, which at present is all numerical, which would instantly identify them as requiring priority care. No doubt there would be some who would say that's unfair, to them I say, pick up a soldier sailors or airmans kit, walk across a field in a combat zone, won't do it, then tough, get behind the serviceman/woman.
Regards
Air pig
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Tedworth House Costs
Help 4 Heroes has leased Tedworth House for £1 a year for the next 99 years. A £20m renovation project is being carried out not just to renovate the property, but to bring it up to required standards.
At full capacity Tedworth House will be able to accommodate 54 residents and 30 day visitors.
At full capacity Tedworth House will be able to accommodate 54 residents and 30 day visitors.
Last edited by hval; 10th Aug 2012 at 12:39.
hval, that's a brilliant figure for admin as I suspect it is run by a very small tight knit group, who are dedicated to their cause unlike some other charities who spend vast amounts on admin and senior staff renumeration.
Bryn Parry, comes over as a straightforward task orientated guy, dedicated to his charities aim of providing some respite for people injured in war. Philip Hammond, typical politician and bean counter by trade. All the NHS care system for veterans requires is a one line Act of Parliament stating that those who have served Will have priority access to care, as I said before, identification just requires is an adjustment to their NHS number either on atestation or 12 months prior to discharge date, could be done as a present for prescription charge exemptions via the unit medical officer, who signs the form. Simple easy system.
Bryn Parry, comes over as a straightforward task orientated guy, dedicated to his charities aim of providing some respite for people injured in war. Philip Hammond, typical politician and bean counter by trade. All the NHS care system for veterans requires is a one line Act of Parliament stating that those who have served Will have priority access to care, as I said before, identification just requires is an adjustment to their NHS number either on atestation or 12 months prior to discharge date, could be done as a present for prescription charge exemptions via the unit medical officer, who signs the form. Simple easy system.
Last edited by air pig; 10th Aug 2012 at 12:42.
H4H is admirably run and would be a very good model for other charities to emulate.
They cannot be perfect or above criticism. Therefore a sense of proportion is important. Personally I back all their major decisions completely. Tedworth House is definitely worth the money and wholly appropriate. A failed plastics factory in Telford might well be cheaper pet sq/ft. Cheaper is not better.
Help for Heroes - Tedworth House Team Tedworth
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They cannot be perfect or above criticism. Therefore a sense of proportion is important. Personally I back all their major decisions completely. Tedworth House is definitely worth the money and wholly appropriate. A failed plastics factory in Telford might well be cheaper pet sq/ft. Cheaper is not better.
Help for Heroes - Tedworth House Team Tedworth
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Lets not forget Stanford Hall, a remarkable gift from the Duke of Westminster, and an incredible undertaking too.
The Stanford Hall Estate - Echelon Wealthcare
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H4H
The real test of H4H will only come once we are out of operations in Afghanistan and it is possible over a period the UK Military will end up back to a tempo of operation as it was before 2001. RBL and SSAFA have been going for many years and there have been quite a few operations such as the Falklands that you will be surprised how quick the public will forget and move on, and the Military will move out of the public eye. Even now less and less news reports are covering what is going on in Afghanistan and slowly but surely the Military is moving out of the public gaze. I am sure we all admire the great work by H4H and other service charities, but I think some senior folk within RBL and SSAFA have had their nose’s put out of joint, due to the fact H4H have only done what RBL and SSAFA should have done in the first place. The ordinary RBL and SSAFA workers will not care as long as money is been raised for the overall worthy cause.
In 10 or 15 years’ time RBL and SSAFA will still be going and hopefully H4H, but once all the bandwagons and Celebrities have gone and they will go, it will be left to the ordinary fund raisers, grass route charity workers and supporters who have always been there and always will. After 2020 the military will be so small it is simply not going to feature in Joe public’s mind, and all the casualties both physical and mental will still be there and still need treatment. So the bottom line while the sun shines all service charities will need to make hay, and investment like the new H4H Centre will be a good long term investment, but it will be in the future a service given and funded behind the limelight and only then will we see the real work of our service charities.
To all the folk who contribute to the work above I take my hat off to you.
In 10 or 15 years’ time RBL and SSAFA will still be going and hopefully H4H, but once all the bandwagons and Celebrities have gone and they will go, it will be left to the ordinary fund raisers, grass route charity workers and supporters who have always been there and always will. After 2020 the military will be so small it is simply not going to feature in Joe public’s mind, and all the casualties both physical and mental will still be there and still need treatment. So the bottom line while the sun shines all service charities will need to make hay, and investment like the new H4H Centre will be a good long term investment, but it will be in the future a service given and funded behind the limelight and only then will we see the real work of our service charities.
To all the folk who contribute to the work above I take my hat off to you.
Last edited by SCAFITE; 10th Aug 2012 at 14:38.
