Was it really fright(e)ning?
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From: Falling off the end of the thread
F6 on APC in Akrotiri shot himself down. Very neat trick, I thought, took real skill to do that.
We had a Jag nearly do that, only a lot slower... so the rounds just grazed the canopy as they overtook it...
Thread Starter
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From: A better place.
Wonderful stories guys.
An extraordinary aircraft.
Mike Hale's bouncing of a U2 at FL88 is still amazing... as is Brian Carroll reaching FL87 over Saudi.
I see Brian Carroll is no longer with us - does Mike Hale ever frequent these forums?
An extraordinary aircraft.
Mike Hale's bouncing of a U2 at FL88 is still amazing... as is Brian Carroll reaching FL87 over Saudi.
I see Brian Carroll is no longer with us - does Mike Hale ever frequent these forums?
Last edited by tartare; 27th July 2012 at 01:44.
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From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Another driver in an F6 had a close encounter with the North Sea and ended up pulling an estimated 13½G pull up
After throttling back, all he could do was to PULL - and he was well over the IAS limit for airbrakes, so they were locked in... It went 'rather black'; when he woke up he was below 1000 ft in a shallow climb with the IAS rapidly decaying. He then sorted himself out, did a low speed handling check and flew back rather cautiously to Binbrook for an underwear change.
He told us that he had lace marks from his g-suit on his legs for days afterwards.
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From: Westnoreastsouth
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From: UK
Hale's figment of imagination .... Post #42 (Lightning versus U-2)
#42 Wonderful stories guys.
An extraordinary aircraft.
Mike Hale's bouncing of a U2 at FL88 is still amazing...
An extraordinary aircraft.
Mike Hale's bouncing of a U2 at FL88 is still amazing...
Wonderful & enjoyable stories they are. Great fun to reminisce.
I flew the Lightning Mk3 ...(the hotrod version of the Lightning with the greatest power to weight ratio).
I also flew the Lockheed U-2C ...(the hotrod version of the U-2 with the greatest power to weight ratio).
Sadly on this excellent aviation forum, the claim by Hale to have bounced a U-2 at 88,000’ must be labelled as a figment of his imagination.
No U-2 could, or can today, reach 88,000’.
At lighter weights, level flight at 70 - 75,000’ is possible: but the margin between Mach buffet IAS at around 102kts IAS and a conventional level flight stall at around 94 knots is small. Smaller still when turning.
Add in survivability – the U-2 pilot wears a pressure suit and the F3 pilot wears leg restrainers & a g-suit.
#43 Another driver in an F6 had a close encounter with the North Sea and ended up pulling an estimated 13½G pull up ..... He told us that he had lace marks from his g-suit on his legs for days afterwards.
A great survival story. But surely even this very tough F6 was bent beyond flyability having exceeded twice the normal “g” limit?
Which airframe serial was it?
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From: Westnoreastsouth
I think 2 separate incidents have been mixed up
The Lightning that once overtook Concorde was described as 'the best of the best' by Flt Lt Mike Hale at the roll-out ceremony for XR749 at Teeside Airport on September 28th 1995. Now an instructor with 56 Sqn at Coningsby, Mike flew 80 sorties in XR749 after the aircraft was allocated to 11 Squadron at Binbrook. He has a particular affection for the aircraft: "The Lightning was an exceptional aircraft in every respect, but XR749 was one of the best of the best. It is probably the best aircraft that I will ever have had the privilege to fly. Because of her tail code BM, she was known as 'Big Mother', although the tail code changed to BO for her last few months on 11 before joining the LTF in January 1985. She was a very hot ship, even for a Lightning. She remained my aircraft for all her time on 11 Sqn despite my being entitled to an F6 as I moved up the squadron pecking order. I invariably asked for her to be allocated to me for the major exercises such as MALLET BLOW, OSEX, and ELDER FOREST despite her being a short range F3 - there were invariably plenty of tankers about!"
His memories include the time in April 1984, during a squadron exchange at Binbrook, when he and XR749 participated in unofficial time-to-height and acceleration trials against F-104 Starfighters from Aalborg. The Lightnings won all races easily, with the exception of the low level supersonic acceleration, which was a dead-heat. This is not surprising when the records show that the year before on one sortie XR749 accelerated to Mach 2.3 (1500 mph) in September 1983.
It was also in 1984, during a major NATO exercise that he intercepted an American U-2 at 66,000 ft, a height which they had previously considered safe from interception. Shortly before this intercept, he flew a zoom climb to 88,000ft
His memories include the time in April 1984, during a squadron exchange at Binbrook, when he and XR749 participated in unofficial time-to-height and acceleration trials against F-104 Starfighters from Aalborg. The Lightnings won all races easily, with the exception of the low level supersonic acceleration, which was a dead-heat. This is not surprising when the records show that the year before on one sortie XR749 accelerated to Mach 2.3 (1500 mph) in September 1983.
It was also in 1984, during a major NATO exercise that he intercepted an American U-2 at 66,000 ft, a height which they had previously considered safe from interception. Shortly before this intercept, he flew a zoom climb to 88,000ft
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From: Westnoreastsouth
Bigglesbrother
Possibly this one ??
A great survival story. But surely even this very tough F6 was bent beyond flyability having exceeded twice the normal “g” limit?
Which airframe serial was it?
Which airframe serial was it?
Possibly this one ??
Lightning F.6 XS898/K c/n 95244. f/f 20.5.66, Salmesbury Warton for storage. 9.1.67 'K' 5 Sqn. 30.1.73 60 MU overhaul, returned approx 4.73. 17.7.76 store. 6.78 'J' 5 Sqn with experimental unit markings. 2.80 store. 8.80 declared Cat 3 for wing cracks, fuel leaks and u/c mounting bracket. Airframe severely overstressed (IOG-14G) following pilot disorientation causing dive at Mach 1.3, but aircraft safely recovered to Binbrook, where stripped down and repaired with reinforcing plates! 27.3.81 'BC' 11 Sqn. 3.83 'AK' 5 Sqn. Storage with periodic air tests until 14.5.86 'BM' 11 Sqn. 7.5.87 store. 29.7.87 'BD' 11 Sqn. 30.6.88 Cranfield for Mr Arnold Glass.
Last edited by longer ron; 27th July 2012 at 09:43.
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From: Muscat, Oman
The 13.5 g was an estimate as the needle had wrapped itself around the end stop. Initially they thought there was nothing wrong with the aircraft, but next morning it had a distinct sag as the main spar had cracked. It sat in the hangar for a couple of years while they figured out what to with it and eventually welded some railway track to the main spar. Because it had been off flying for so long, when it came out again, it was the aircraft with the least overall fatigue on it so any high g sortie was planned to use that one!
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From: N London
Re data link,
sorry a bit late on this. The data would have come to the aircraft via the UHF Radio, ARC 52 and maybe later the PTR 175. How sufficent data could have come over that RF link with AM modulation with sufficient redundency is still a complete mystery to me. Range 200 miles at 10,000 feet.
Would this be enough range. Can anybody point me to a good site that explains it better ?
Only had the pleasure of one once, that was at Cosford during training.
Thank You
sorry a bit late on this. The data would have come to the aircraft via the UHF Radio, ARC 52 and maybe later the PTR 175. How sufficent data could have come over that RF link with AM modulation with sufficient redundency is still a complete mystery to me. Range 200 miles at 10,000 feet.
Would this be enough range. Can anybody point me to a good site that explains it better ?
Only had the pleasure of one once, that was at Cosford during training.
Thank You
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From: London
Assuming we are talking of the same incident, the culprit told me that when he admitted to his sqn cdr that he had pulled 'a lot more than 10g', sqn cdr got cross and shouted "Why did you pull that much G?!!"
Reply: "Because I couldn't pull any f*****g harder!"
Reply: "Because I couldn't pull any f*****g harder!"
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
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From: Lincolnshire
PTR, 200 miles/ 10,000 feet is a little optimistic. Best you could hope for at 10k would be 114 miles. For 200 miles you would need to be at 30k which would be about right for a cruise near the trop.
The radio would most likely have been the ARC52 at the time. As for link capacity, Link 16 it was not. Think more an advance 1200 bps modem was circa 1990. The data link was probably slow and sequential with one command at a time.
The radio would most likely have been the ARC52 at the time. As for link capacity, Link 16 it was not. Think more an advance 1200 bps modem was circa 1990. The data link was probably slow and sequential with one command at a time.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
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From: Lincolnshire
Bigglesbro, it was not just g-pants that he would have been wearing but a full partial pressure jerkin with sleeves and a Taylor partial pressure helmet. The latter allowed FL660 rather than the FL560 for the P/Q mask. I think the sleeves on the pressure jerkin permitted even greater heights to be flown. These were of course oxygen equipment limits and not necessarily air frame limits. IIRC the Lightning had the Mk 21 regulator that could deliver 30mm overpressure at 45,000ft and 70mm at 56,000ft.
Later our Mk 21s were downgraded to the Mk 17 which meant we could go to 50,000ft with only the P/Q mask. Then someone discovered aerodynamic suck which reduced the permitted oxygen flight levels by about 2000 feet.
Later our Mk 21s were downgraded to the Mk 17 which meant we could go to 50,000ft with only the P/Q mask. Then someone discovered aerodynamic suck which reduced the permitted oxygen flight levels by about 2000 feet.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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From: UK
PN - unless the 'high flyer' was pre-planned. Hale would not have been wearing more than the posing kit biggles mentions, and thus to go to '88,000ft' (if only!) would be very foolish, and when he throttled back to come back down he would probably have in a very bad way with the loss of cabin pressure!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
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From: Lincolnshire
BOAC, haven't checked the dates but the kit I was describing was in the late 60s. I believe the Taylor helmet didn't continue much after that.
As for flying at the airframe limit rather than the AvMed limit I think that has happened more than once. Too tempting to 'forget' what will happen if you have to step out the office before it has come to a complete stop.
As for flying at the airframe limit rather than the AvMed limit I think that has happened more than once. Too tempting to 'forget' what will happen if you have to step out the office before it has come to a complete stop.
Just a numbered other
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From: Earth
As a meer chopper puke, I was always in awe of this machine.
My first memory was as a twelve year old kid at Farnborough '64 where a formation team of 4 (IIRC) put on a very impressive turn. The noise was awesome and internal organ wrecking vibration too.
A year later, as an ATC cadet I can remember being more than slightly impressed by a talk given by the CO's son who was operational on them at the time.
I recall about that time a very good photo in the 'Daily Mirror' i think, of a lightning in a vertical dive about to bury itself in an east anglian field, as a tractor driver looks on.
Later, as a QHI teaching fighter evasion in the west country, we were allocated some 'nings as opposition! (All Navy Hunters, our usual foe, on exercise up north) I can still see the lightning passing me nose about 20degrees up, flames belching from both exhausts, and still going downwards at about a hundred feet AGL. Very imressive! No kills, as I remember.
A Wessex mate (initials MF) on 72 squadron in NI about 1981 used to tell a story of his time on the lighning OCU very similar to the 10+ G over the north sea story. That's how he claimed to wind up on helicopters! Too 'impressed' to continue the course!
Just got an email from Amazon by strange co-incidence: That'll be a good read.
Fantastic aeroplane.
My first memory was as a twelve year old kid at Farnborough '64 where a formation team of 4 (IIRC) put on a very impressive turn. The noise was awesome and internal organ wrecking vibration too.
A year later, as an ATC cadet I can remember being more than slightly impressed by a talk given by the CO's son who was operational on them at the time.
I recall about that time a very good photo in the 'Daily Mirror' i think, of a lightning in a vertical dive about to bury itself in an east anglian field, as a tractor driver looks on.
Later, as a QHI teaching fighter evasion in the west country, we were allocated some 'nings as opposition! (All Navy Hunters, our usual foe, on exercise up north) I can still see the lightning passing me nose about 20degrees up, flames belching from both exhausts, and still going downwards at about a hundred feet AGL. Very imressive! No kills, as I remember.
A Wessex mate (initials MF) on 72 squadron in NI about 1981 used to tell a story of his time on the lighning OCU very similar to the 10+ G over the north sea story. That's how he claimed to wind up on helicopters! Too 'impressed' to continue the course!
Just got an email from Amazon by strange co-incidence: That'll be a good read.
Fantastic aeroplane.
Dog Tired
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From: uk
F6 on APC in Akrotiri shot himself down. Very neat trick, I thought, took real skill to do that.
Rashid range (where the Alu plant is now near Dubai) my pairs leader thought he would film me from behind as I dropped 2x 100 gal 'napalm' loads - water, of course. I seem to recall it was 450 kts/50' agl. Anyway that excellent camera - F ninety-something - he was using revealed that, shortly after the release, he entered a very low-level black Cb of desert and general detritus and limped home to Sharjah. I, on my first A/G 30mm collected a round from the target frame, into the right eng intake, which stripped every single compressor blade from the engine. Deadstick into SHJ for which I deserved a medal.
My logbook reads:'Two shot down'.
The pairs leader was the mod of this forum beginning with 'W...'
True.
Memorable 1,000th post. Medal now?
Last edited by fantom; 28th July 2012 at 20:12.
One hopes he has learnt about flying from that...................
.
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From: @exRAF_Al
F6 on APC in Akrotiri shot himself down. Very neat trick, I thought, took real skill to do that.
Either way, imagine 4 young rockapes, hearing about this inbound impending doom on the net, seeing it glide in, and then running around like headless chickens because we hadn't got a clue where it would land. It went over very low and did it skip and bounce when it hit - it made a hell of a noise and the sound I recall is the screeching sound of metal coming apart - I think it ended up on a gradual slope in someone's back garden.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
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From: Lincolnshire
fantom, which accounts for the fact that we now use aluminium poles for the strafe targets despite the cost. A marksman however would shoot the shackles which of course were steel.
We acquired some Scimitars as targets and it was deemed that the 30mm aluminium 'armour' was soft as far as the Aden was concerned. A USAFE F15 engaged one (natural target really) and we never found the lid.
We acquired some Scimitars as targets and it was deemed that the 30mm aluminium 'armour' was soft as far as the Aden was concerned. A USAFE F15 engaged one (natural target really) and we never found the lid.