Shameful - please give your support
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As a long-term watcher and part-time contributor I feel that I have to jump in and have my 2 pence worth. I am quite appalled at the treatment of this chap who has faithfully served the UK for so long.
I am a dodgy foreigner myself (commonwealth) who joined the RAF in 1999. The Brit embassy who recruited me said that I would be issued with a passport when I arrived. I remained an illiegal immigrant (whilst holding the Queen's commission) for the next 3 years and was even sent out of the country to hold while they sorted it out! Needless to say nothing was done and I continued to rely on NATO travel orders to see me through border crossings.
During a tour in NI an Army major thought this was the most proposterous (yes he did use that word) thing he had ever heard and asked my permission to write to his MP. 3 letters later and I was invited to apply for naturalisation. The passport was then a mere formality.
My point is that there are precedents there to use in your battle with the great unwashed. My feelings are that there will be too much negative publicity and they will roll over in the end...they always do!
I am a dodgy foreigner myself (commonwealth) who joined the RAF in 1999. The Brit embassy who recruited me said that I would be issued with a passport when I arrived. I remained an illiegal immigrant (whilst holding the Queen's commission) for the next 3 years and was even sent out of the country to hold while they sorted it out! Needless to say nothing was done and I continued to rely on NATO travel orders to see me through border crossings.
During a tour in NI an Army major thought this was the most proposterous (yes he did use that word) thing he had ever heard and asked my permission to write to his MP. 3 letters later and I was invited to apply for naturalisation. The passport was then a mere formality.
My point is that there are precedents there to use in your battle with the great unwashed. My feelings are that there will be too much negative publicity and they will roll over in the end...they always do!
I agree that the average officer is probably more eloquent in defending his or her position own dealing with other Government Departments and I can't help but feel that the Army and Bale's CoC should have intervened earlier to assist this LCpl, before this became a Daily Heil/Daily Mailygraph political points-scoring matter.
I understand, too, that this isn't the first time the Bale family have invited the press to deal with Army complaints. I believe Mrs Bale called the press in to complain about the condition of quarters several years ago. I'm sure that was helpful.
Again, I get this niggly feeling that this story does't add up (in my case, naturalisation was a very straight-forward process and the RAF paid the fee).
I understand, too, that this isn't the first time the Bale family have invited the press to deal with Army complaints. I believe Mrs Bale called the press in to complain about the condition of quarters several years ago. I'm sure that was helpful.
Again, I get this niggly feeling that this story does't add up (in my case, naturalisation was a very straight-forward process and the RAF paid the fee).
Dog Tired
Needs a good Human Rights lawyer - right to enjoy Family Life
Bastardos.
The point, as far as I can tell is this, he has been refused leave to remain in the country by the UKBA because he was charged and fined for a disciplinary offence last year. After the 2010 amendment to the Rehabilitation of Offenders act (1974) all convictions, whether spent or not, can be taken into account by the UKBA. Prior to this amendment there were no exceptions, once a conviction was spent, it was spent. So if his offence took place last year or 12 years ago it would still be considered as a criminal conviction by the UKBA.
The real injustice as far as I am concerned is that all punishments awarded under military discipline which lead to a fine or detention are regarded as convictions. A civilian has to be taken to court, tried and found guilty to receive a conviction. During this process they are entitled to professional legal representation.
A member of HM Forces can be charged, the offence heard by and disposed of by their Commanding officer, with no right to legal representation. This means any serviceman or woman who leaves the Forces and has been charged and fined in the 12 months prior to leaving must declare the conviction when applying for a job. How many people know that? And in fact prior to 1st May this year, the rehabilitation period for a conviction leading to a fine was actually 5 years.
I am willing to accept that offences dealt with by a Court Martial should be regarded with the same weight as a Civilian court conviction but a simple charge? Heard by any old commissioned officer without specialist legal training or experience? That is ludicrous.
http://www.ilpa.org.uk/data/resource...s-Act-1974.pdf
The real injustice as far as I am concerned is that all punishments awarded under military discipline which lead to a fine or detention are regarded as convictions. A civilian has to be taken to court, tried and found guilty to receive a conviction. During this process they are entitled to professional legal representation.
A member of HM Forces can be charged, the offence heard by and disposed of by their Commanding officer, with no right to legal representation. This means any serviceman or woman who leaves the Forces and has been charged and fined in the 12 months prior to leaving must declare the conviction when applying for a job. How many people know that? And in fact prior to 1st May this year, the rehabilitation period for a conviction leading to a fine was actually 5 years.
I am willing to accept that offences dealt with by a Court Martial should be regarded with the same weight as a Civilian court conviction but a simple charge? Heard by any old commissioned officer without specialist legal training or experience? That is ludicrous.
http://www.ilpa.org.uk/data/resource...s-Act-1974.pdf
Last edited by Avionker; 24th Jul 2012 at 15:57.
Dog Tired
The point, as far as I can tell is this, he has been refused leave to remain in the country by the UKBA because he was charged and fined for a disciplinary offence last year.
What are we doing here?
In the last 24 hours, another 4268 signatures have been added, 16% more than in the previous 24 hours!
Keep signing and asking others to do the same!
Keep signing and asking others to do the same!
Just to clarify, Courts Martial are no longer heard 'by any old officer'. The procedure has been massively overhauled; the Judge Advocate is the chap (or chapette) with the power and the authority. Furthermore CMs are now conducted at regional centres to ensure that they are run iaw the RP and Officers and Warrant Officers are effectively the jury.
However, Bale received summary justice which - in the circumstances described - is also lawful. This wasn't a 'behind the Drill Shed' shoeing - if so, he would have grounds to appeal the judgement, and he has not.
If ex-LCpl Bale had been in a fight with a civilian or once he had left as a civilian, the matter would have been dealt with by a Magistrate and he may have had a conviction, resulting in the same UKBA outcome. Just because he did 12 years in uniform is, unfortunately, irrelevant. Moreover he has had 7 years to apply to be naturalised.
Moreover, the right to remain through marriage is not explored - is this no longer a valid reason?
However, Bale received summary justice which - in the circumstances described - is also lawful. This wasn't a 'behind the Drill Shed' shoeing - if so, he would have grounds to appeal the judgement, and he has not.
If ex-LCpl Bale had been in a fight with a civilian or once he had left as a civilian, the matter would have been dealt with by a Magistrate and he may have had a conviction, resulting in the same UKBA outcome. Just because he did 12 years in uniform is, unfortunately, irrelevant. Moreover he has had 7 years to apply to be naturalised.
Moreover, the right to remain through marriage is not explored - is this no longer a valid reason?
Last edited by Whenurhappy; 26th Jul 2012 at 07:16. Reason: for clarity
May I suggest you re-read what I wrote? I said that I accepted that a conviction by a CM should carry the same weight as a Civilian court. A simple charge should not however, as they are not conducted by the Judge Advocate, there is no jury and there is no legal representation.
Last edited by Avionker; 25th Jul 2012 at 11:31.
Join Date: Jan 2005
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He was not Court Martialled, it was the usual run of the mill kangaroo court before his CO, could even have been as low as his Company Cdr. He therefore had no representation and was not aware that several of his comrades had offered to appear as witnesses to testify that he was defending himself. They were not allowed to do so.
Bale was fined in 2011 by his Commanding Officer for fighting with another soldier who instigated the fight. There was no police involvement, no trial, no defence and nor was it impartial. Bale did not know he was being charged with a criminal conviction. He believed this was an 'in-house' disciplinary offence only. He has no criminal record, this offence is only on his military record. There was no court martial. He has now appealed the conviction.
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Duly signed
This from a contact:
the official line is
"I can not comment specifically on individual cases but I am informed
by the Home Office team that the UK Border Agency considers
applications for settlement from former Her Majesty’s Forces personnel
in the same way as all other applications for settlement. This
involves consideration of a range of factors including unspent
convictions, whether passed by military courts or resulting from
police involvement."
This from a contact:
the official line is
"I can not comment specifically on individual cases but I am informed
by the Home Office team that the UK Border Agency considers
applications for settlement from former Her Majesty’s Forces personnel
in the same way as all other applications for settlement. This
involves consideration of a range of factors including unspent
convictions, whether passed by military courts or resulting from
police involvement."
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Horsham, England, UK. ---o--O--o---
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Duly signed. Now 18,255 signatures!
I'm so sickened at how former and serving serviceman are treated by our incompetent self serving Governments of recent times. They appear to be nothing but traitors;and if I had my way the Tower of London would be full of these inadequate politicians.
Off with their heads..
I'm so sickened at how former and serving serviceman are treated by our incompetent self serving Governments of recent times. They appear to be nothing but traitors;and if I had my way the Tower of London would be full of these inadequate politicians.
Off with their heads..
Last edited by Out Of Trim; 25th Jul 2012 at 16:46.
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This from my MP:
" Thank you for your email regarding Lance Corporal Bale Baleiwai. I appreciate your concern on this issue.
I entirely support the campaign and understand that Ministers are looking at the matter.
Thank you for taking the trouble to contact me about this important issue.
With best wishes,"
Try writing to your MP via
WriteToThem - Email or fax your Councillor, MP, MEP, MSP or Welsh, NI, London Assembly Member for free
You can search for your MP there, and send them a message. That's how I contacted mine yesterday, and she replied to me with the above today.
" Thank you for your email regarding Lance Corporal Bale Baleiwai. I appreciate your concern on this issue.
I entirely support the campaign and understand that Ministers are looking at the matter.
Thank you for taking the trouble to contact me about this important issue.
With best wishes,"
Try writing to your MP via
WriteToThem - Email or fax your Councillor, MP, MEP, MSP or Welsh, NI, London Assembly Member for free
You can search for your MP there, and send them a message. That's how I contacted mine yesterday, and she replied to me with the above today.
And at the phrase that I have emphasised in red is the sticking point.
Do the UKBA appreciate the difference between a military court and the summary justice which arises from a charge heard solely by one, sometimes very junior, officer?
"I can not comment specifically on individual cases but I am informed
by the Home Office team that the UK Border Agency considers
applications for settlement from former Her Majesty’s Forces personnel
in the same way as all other applications for settlement. This
involves consideration of a range of factors including unspent
convictions, whether passed by military courts or resulting from
police involvement."
by the Home Office team that the UK Border Agency considers
applications for settlement from former Her Majesty’s Forces personnel
in the same way as all other applications for settlement. This
involves consideration of a range of factors including unspent
convictions, whether passed by military courts or resulting from
police involvement."