Shameful - please give your support
I wasn't claiming it was inside information - simply repeating what was on BAFF's website for the benefit of PPruners!
Again I find it interesting, to say the least, that no firm appears to be representing Mr Balewai in respect of his imminent deportation. If that had been the case I'm sure that VA and BAFF - and otheres -woiuld publicise the fact, demonstrate the bone fides of mr Balewai's case for Indefinte Leave to Remain. The first step would be to obtain a Court Injunction to stay proceedings whilst the legal team sought a Immigration Tribunal appeal, followed by, potentially, a Judicial Review.
Are there not some ex SP on this website within the legal fraternity who fancy so high-profile por-bono work? Suffice to say, if I was in the UK and out of the Services, I'd help this chap like a shot, once all the facts were discovered.
Again I find it interesting, to say the least, that no firm appears to be representing Mr Balewai in respect of his imminent deportation. If that had been the case I'm sure that VA and BAFF - and otheres -woiuld publicise the fact, demonstrate the bone fides of mr Balewai's case for Indefinte Leave to Remain. The first step would be to obtain a Court Injunction to stay proceedings whilst the legal team sought a Immigration Tribunal appeal, followed by, potentially, a Judicial Review.
Are there not some ex SP on this website within the legal fraternity who fancy so high-profile por-bono work? Suffice to say, if I was in the UK and out of the Services, I'd help this chap like a shot, once all the facts were discovered.
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Baffman - your last post
e.g. falling asleep when on armed guard duty.
I once acted as airman's friend for a young RAF copper who did that; at the time the max sentence was 2 years in prison (not MCTC). The charge was disposed of at a summary CO's orderly room.
As it turned out he got a thumping great fine and a severe dig. He was lucky 'cause he retained his service career, but he will have a criminal record for the rest of his life.
But, back to Bale, the best thing any of us can do is sign the HMG e-petition and I recommend you all do so.
It's likely he can get out of this pickle by himself, especially if he has been following this thread and anything on related sites which make lots of suggestions. Still the e-gov, e-petition can only help; if everyone who has signed up to the VA petition, so far, also signs that petition, it would be 25% of the way to getting an outing in the house of commons.
RGDS SOS
I once acted as airman's friend for a young RAF copper who did that; at the time the max sentence was 2 years in prison (not MCTC). The charge was disposed of at a summary CO's orderly room.
As it turned out he got a thumping great fine and a severe dig. He was lucky 'cause he retained his service career, but he will have a criminal record for the rest of his life.
But, back to Bale, the best thing any of us can do is sign the HMG e-petition and I recommend you all do so.
It's likely he can get out of this pickle by himself, especially if he has been following this thread and anything on related sites which make lots of suggestions. Still the e-gov, e-petition can only help; if everyone who has signed up to the VA petition, so far, also signs that petition, it would be 25% of the way to getting an outing in the house of commons.
RGDS SOS
Last edited by SOSL; 31st Jul 2012 at 13:35.
The best thing any of us can do is sign the HMG e-petition and I recommend you all do so.... the e-gov, e-petition can only help; if everyone who has signed up to the VA petition, so far, also signs that petition, it would be 25% of the way to getting an outing in the house of commons.
Whenurhappy - Thanks. Media are saying that Mr Baleiwai HAS now been granted temporary leave to remain to allow him to pursue his appeal against the summary award.
Please sign both petitions!
Last edited by baffman; 31st Jul 2012 at 14:02.
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Marginal, thread drift here, but I am reacting to previous posts on this thread, including my own which may have been taken wrongly, and I haven't forgotten L/Cpl Balewai.
I retired from the RAF 8 years ago, so forgive me if some of my observations dont apply any longer.
There is nothing, fundamentally, wrong with summary hearings. Summary disposition simply means the alleged offence is dealt with by an appointed official and the evidence is not assessed by a jury. It is a pragmatic measure which prevents the higher courts becoming overwhelmed by an avalaunche of minor cases. In a way it is a waiver to Magna Carta.
However, in the UK it is conducted under procedural controls and is open to appeal to a higher authority.
There is a huge number of juristictions, throughout the world where there is no equivalent of Magna Carta or Habeus Corpus and all alleged offences are dealt with by summary hearing (e.g. no jury).
In some juristictions, believe it or not, the defendant is not allowed to see the evidence against him or her.
I have heard that in certain countries, a woman accused of adultery (wtf?) can be tried, without being informed of any evidence against her,convicted and then judicially murdered.... But surely no judiciary could be so stupid, could they?
I have also heard that there is a juristiction in a supposedly developed and very wealthy country which found a young lady guilty of being raped, and sentenced her to be flogged (wtf?) for being raped! You couldn't make it up!
The fact is that there are so many NASTY, IGNORANT TWXTS, running beautiful parts of the world, populated by mostly nice, but stupid, people who let the fucxxers get away with it.
But getting back to home, by far the majority of all detected crime, in the UK, is dealt with in summary hearings e.g. in a magistrates court, and you may be aware that there is an induction process for JPs which includes limited legal training. This is not unlike the limited legal training which all military officers undergo in basic training and in subsequent promotion exams and staff training courses.
In a magistrates court the clerk to the court is the person who has most knowlegde of the law and who guides the magistrates when necessary.
In the military, for summary hearings, there is no such person but, if you have any doubt (in my day) you could always talk to OC Admin, before the hearing. When it came to Court Martial, the law was set out by the Judge Advocate General.
I have personally disposed of many charges and have handed out some relatively severe and some "slap on the wrist" punishments - mostly based on the seniority and the culpability of the offenders. e.g. a Sgt and an SAC failed to turn up for their shift because they had gone to play 18 holes of a golf league. The Sgt got a severe dig (which affected his posting and promotion prospects), the SAC got an admonition (which didn't). Also where necessary (or where the accused requested it) I refered some to the CO and thence to Court Martial, via a Summary of Evidence, as it was called.
Most officers taking summary hearings have had some legal training; probably enough, given the obvious positive incentive for them to be fair in their decisions (otherwise morale suffers and leadership become a little difficult).
I dont think our system is wrong. But most serving personnel who are facing a summary hearing in their unit don't do enough to help themselves. They aren't properly briefed and they have an inbred loyalty to the chain of command, which puts them at a disadvantage in trying to defend themselves.
The problem with military summary hearings is not that they are unfair procedures, but that the the accused airman, airwoman, sapper, bombardier,signaller, gunner etc etc (apologies to the RN, can't remember your designations) usually doesn't try to help him/her self because of their conditioning.
It may be that L/Cpl Bale fell into that trap. Hence the blot on his copybook and, seemingly, the HMBA reaction. But that can't be the whole story.
Forgive the rant - I just got carried away because of my own experience.
Rgds SOS
I retired from the RAF 8 years ago, so forgive me if some of my observations dont apply any longer.
There is nothing, fundamentally, wrong with summary hearings. Summary disposition simply means the alleged offence is dealt with by an appointed official and the evidence is not assessed by a jury. It is a pragmatic measure which prevents the higher courts becoming overwhelmed by an avalaunche of minor cases. In a way it is a waiver to Magna Carta.
However, in the UK it is conducted under procedural controls and is open to appeal to a higher authority.
There is a huge number of juristictions, throughout the world where there is no equivalent of Magna Carta or Habeus Corpus and all alleged offences are dealt with by summary hearing (e.g. no jury).
In some juristictions, believe it or not, the defendant is not allowed to see the evidence against him or her.
I have heard that in certain countries, a woman accused of adultery (wtf?) can be tried, without being informed of any evidence against her,convicted and then judicially murdered.... But surely no judiciary could be so stupid, could they?
I have also heard that there is a juristiction in a supposedly developed and very wealthy country which found a young lady guilty of being raped, and sentenced her to be flogged (wtf?) for being raped! You couldn't make it up!
The fact is that there are so many NASTY, IGNORANT TWXTS, running beautiful parts of the world, populated by mostly nice, but stupid, people who let the fucxxers get away with it.
But getting back to home, by far the majority of all detected crime, in the UK, is dealt with in summary hearings e.g. in a magistrates court, and you may be aware that there is an induction process for JPs which includes limited legal training. This is not unlike the limited legal training which all military officers undergo in basic training and in subsequent promotion exams and staff training courses.
In a magistrates court the clerk to the court is the person who has most knowlegde of the law and who guides the magistrates when necessary.
In the military, for summary hearings, there is no such person but, if you have any doubt (in my day) you could always talk to OC Admin, before the hearing. When it came to Court Martial, the law was set out by the Judge Advocate General.
I have personally disposed of many charges and have handed out some relatively severe and some "slap on the wrist" punishments - mostly based on the seniority and the culpability of the offenders. e.g. a Sgt and an SAC failed to turn up for their shift because they had gone to play 18 holes of a golf league. The Sgt got a severe dig (which affected his posting and promotion prospects), the SAC got an admonition (which didn't). Also where necessary (or where the accused requested it) I refered some to the CO and thence to Court Martial, via a Summary of Evidence, as it was called.
Most officers taking summary hearings have had some legal training; probably enough, given the obvious positive incentive for them to be fair in their decisions (otherwise morale suffers and leadership become a little difficult).
I dont think our system is wrong. But most serving personnel who are facing a summary hearing in their unit don't do enough to help themselves. They aren't properly briefed and they have an inbred loyalty to the chain of command, which puts them at a disadvantage in trying to defend themselves.
The problem with military summary hearings is not that they are unfair procedures, but that the the accused airman, airwoman, sapper, bombardier,signaller, gunner etc etc (apologies to the RN, can't remember your designations) usually doesn't try to help him/her self because of their conditioning.
It may be that L/Cpl Bale fell into that trap. Hence the blot on his copybook and, seemingly, the HMBA reaction. But that can't be the whole story.
Forgive the rant - I just got carried away because of my own experience.
Rgds SOS
Last edited by SOSL; 2nd Aug 2012 at 20:21. Reason: For completeness
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The problem with military summary hearings is not that they are unfair procedures, but that the the accused airman, airwoman, sapper, bombardier,signaller, gunner etc etc (apologies to the RN, can't remember your designations) usually doesn't try to help him/her self because of their conditioning.
It may be that L/Cpl Bale fell into that trap. Hence the blot on his copybook and, seemingly, the HMBA reaction. But that can't be the whole story.
It may be that L/Cpl Bale fell into that trap. Hence the blot on his copybook and, seemingly, the HMBA reaction. But that can't be the whole story.
If the non commissioned ranks you refer to are so "conditioned" by the system to the extent that "they don't try to help themselves" then by definition these summary hearings are unfair. Why cannot that be "the whole story"? If some relevant details are missing the responsibility for that rests with the (legally trained according to you) probably very junior officer who was judge, jury and executioner when the charge was heard.
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Shack37
I think you and I are in the same boat as I was with Wuh. I agree with what you say. When the accused doesn't do enough to help him or her self then they have been treated unfairly.
My point about not knowing the full story wasn't about the fairness or lawfulness of any particular process. It was about what we have been told on this thread.
Rgds SOS
My point about not knowing the full story wasn't about the fairness or lawfulness of any particular process. It was about what we have been told on this thread.
Rgds SOS
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SOSL
.
And there's the nub. My apologies, stick, wrong end getting hold of.
My point about not knowing the full story wasn't about the fairness or lawfulness of any particular process. It was about what we have been told on this thread
And there's the nub. My apologies, stick, wrong end getting hold of.
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Sigh
It doesn't look like the system is getting any better ... Deportation for a Speeding Ticket
He volunteered to fight for Britain. Now this soldier faces deportation and jail... all over a speeding fine | Mail Online
It doesn't look like the system is getting any better ... Deportation for a Speeding Ticket
He volunteered to fight for Britain. Now this soldier faces deportation and jail... all over a speeding fine | Mail Online
My only caution with this latest case its that it is reported in the Daily Wail. It seems that the soldier followed the procedure but the UKBA have rejected his application. Is there more to the story?
Is there an update on the subject of teh OP - Mr Balewai?
Is there an update on the subject of teh OP - Mr Balewai?
Last push for signatures
I understand that the main Baleiwai petition is going to be presented shortly, so if you haven't already signed it and would like to do so, you know what to do 
Stop Bale being deported after 13 years serving British Armed Forces
Thanks! And thanks to everyone who has signed already.
Stop Bale being deported after 13 years serving British Armed Forces
Thanks! And thanks to everyone who has signed already.
Pop, thanks for signing!
What the petition is asking for:
Seems fair to me. Please sign if you can. Petition ends very soon.
Stop Bale being deported after 13 years serving British Armed Forces Petition
What the petition is asking for:
We, the undersigned, call on the British Government to grant British Citizenship to Isimeli Baleiwai after 13 years military service with the British Armed Forces.
We, the undersigned, call on the British Government to review immigration Law and Policy regarding Foreign and Commonwealth Soldiers.
We, the undersigned, call on the British Government to review immigration Law and Policy regarding Foreign and Commonwealth Soldiers.
Stop Bale being deported after 13 years serving British Armed Forces Petition
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Summary hearing fair or unfair debate.
L Mowday - Freedom of Information requests - WhatDoTheyKnow
Looks like someone high up on the inside also thinks that the summary hearings are not quite right. I know of RAF police interview tapes being edited and I don't mind betting it happened here too.
There maybe more to come out!!!
Looks like someone high up on the inside also thinks that the summary hearings are not quite right. I know of RAF police interview tapes being edited and I don't mind betting it happened here too.
There maybe more to come out!!!
Last edited by AvionicToad; 12th Oct 2012 at 21:09.