Scotland would get 18 fast jets plus 26 helos if it splits
Suspicion breeds confidence
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Scotland would get 18 fast jets plus 26 helos if it splits
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I suppose it depends on what you would call 'independence'.
If we are talking about total economic, political, judicial, social and geographical independence-with no reliance on the rest of the UK economy or resources; my reaction would be 'paid for with what exactly?' They are going to have to run, staff and maintain schools, free healthcare for all, police, roads, welfare, fire service, free university tuition, criminal justice, parliament, civil service, bus subsidies, tram subsidies, railway subsidies, farm subsidies, NATO subscription (yes they are planning to do that), foreign development, a diplomatic service, culture, media and anything else that people expect of governments. Where does the money for an armed service come from on top of everything else (which they won't be able to afford)?
The argument that Scotland pays most of that on its own already just doesn't stand up to even the most basic scrutiny. The Scottish 'government' may decide what to do with the money it 'generates', but it is the UK which generates that money.
I suspect that if Scotland did vote to 'begin negotiations for independence', the UK governemnt would play hard-ball and negotiate for total economic severence and seek to reduce the interdependence between the 2 economies. Will the SNP learn the lessons from Ireland? I for one hope they don't vote for independence or I may have to leave this bonny land which I have come to love before it exposes its economy to the rest of the world's overspending and lives beyond its own means to pay for fighters, warships and helicopters.
Rant, rant burble rant...
If we are talking about total economic, political, judicial, social and geographical independence-with no reliance on the rest of the UK economy or resources; my reaction would be 'paid for with what exactly?' They are going to have to run, staff and maintain schools, free healthcare for all, police, roads, welfare, fire service, free university tuition, criminal justice, parliament, civil service, bus subsidies, tram subsidies, railway subsidies, farm subsidies, NATO subscription (yes they are planning to do that), foreign development, a diplomatic service, culture, media and anything else that people expect of governments. Where does the money for an armed service come from on top of everything else (which they won't be able to afford)?
The argument that Scotland pays most of that on its own already just doesn't stand up to even the most basic scrutiny. The Scottish 'government' may decide what to do with the money it 'generates', but it is the UK which generates that money.
I suspect that if Scotland did vote to 'begin negotiations for independence', the UK governemnt would play hard-ball and negotiate for total economic severence and seek to reduce the interdependence between the 2 economies. Will the SNP learn the lessons from Ireland? I for one hope they don't vote for independence or I may have to leave this bonny land which I have come to love before it exposes its economy to the rest of the world's overspending and lives beyond its own means to pay for fighters, warships and helicopters.
Rant, rant burble rant...
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And assuming that Alex Salmon wouldn't want any wretched English sounding folk in his newly independent kingdom's military, I assume that all Scottish sounding folk would either run for their new homeland military or be pushed!
Last edited by Corrona; 20th Jul 2012 at 13:11.
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And when I become Life President Grand Panjandrum in Chief of the Nation of Rutland I'm going to demand a Bomber sub, two fire engines and a subscription to the Beano.
I've never heard such idiotic bolleaux in my life.
But as we live in a democracy we, the British - that is all of us, will get to vote in a referendum whether we want our nation split up and part of it handed to a minority bunch of fanatical isolationists.
Won't we?
I've never heard such idiotic bolleaux in my life.
But as we live in a democracy we, the British - that is all of us, will get to vote in a referendum whether we want our nation split up and part of it handed to a minority bunch of fanatical isolationists.
Won't we?
And assuming that Alex Salmon wouldn't want any wretched English sounding folk in his newly independent kingdom's military, I assume that all Scottish sounding folk would either run for their new homeland military or be pushed!
A more serious point is that in the event of Scottish independence/separation, the new Scottish defence force (call it what you will) would be competing with England/Wales/N Ireland for some of the same people. This would surely be a problem North of the Border in specialist areas like SF.
The hypothetical independent Scotland would be holding one joker - HMNB Clyde. It would be unlikely to accept the deterrent being based there indefinitely, but there has been increasing chatter about the SSBN/SSN fleets remaining there for the life of Trident.
Arguably this week's news of Salmond's personal support for NATO membership, to be debated at his party's autumn conference, helps to make that a more feasible prospect.
The "18 fast jets, 26 tanks" etc is a calculation based on the national asset register - not a reflection of the actual split which would be in the interests of both countries. It would not be sensible for an independent Scottish defence force to be an exact miniature of the present UK armed forces. Against that, England/Wales/N Ireland might be making a case, in extremely complex negotiations, not to be left with a disproportionate share of expensive legacy assets.
Agaricus bisporus
Don't worry there isn't a chance that the residents of Scotland will vote for independence. The SNP are back tracking so quickly on all their major issues like NATO, keeping the pound, HM the Queen as head of State, that most sane people can see they are running scared.
The latest load of rubbish is their defence policy - keep Lossie and Leuchars - for what a few 2nd hand FJs, transports and helicopters. You could house them all at say Prestwick and save money. The SNP won't admit that though as they would lose votes so their policy is VOTE FOR Wee Eck AND INDEPENDENCE and nothing will change which the Scots are seeing for the big lie it is. Lots will change and all for the worse.
HF
Don't worry there isn't a chance that the residents of Scotland will vote for independence. The SNP are back tracking so quickly on all their major issues like NATO, keeping the pound, HM the Queen as head of State, that most sane people can see they are running scared.
The latest load of rubbish is their defence policy - keep Lossie and Leuchars - for what a few 2nd hand FJs, transports and helicopters. You could house them all at say Prestwick and save money. The SNP won't admit that though as they would lose votes so their policy is VOTE FOR Wee Eck AND INDEPENDENCE and nothing will change which the Scots are seeing for the big lie it is. Lots will change and all for the worse.
HF
But as we live in a democracy we, the British - that is all of us, will get to vote in a referendum whether we want our nation split up and part of it handed to a minority bunch of fanatical isolationists.
Won't we?
Won't we?
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Wee Eck
Wee Eck is merely serving a purpose. He is under the unfortunate delusion that Braveheart is a documentry. A pawn in the age old scheme of things when it comes to bargaining - ask for all and meet half way.
Anyway, if Queen Liz wants to flog us some aircraft can we have the Shackletons back please? After we get rid of the subs the redundant shipyard joes will have instant employment.
Anyway, if Queen Liz wants to flog us some aircraft can we have the Shackletons back please? After we get rid of the subs the redundant shipyard joes will have instant employment.
Salmond's not stupid. Agree this split now, knowing fine well MoD won't be able to deliver, and get the compo claim ready for defaulting on the contract. Do what all companies do; slip a few words like "serviceable" and "airworthy" into the contract. Commercial people think "that's reasonable" and let it go. Better still, include "& training facility" and MoD (South Division) will be left without, as Eck will have grabbed the only one.
Salmond is continuously shooting himself in the foot. His latest sage is to legalise gay marriages in Scotland. They asked for people to fill in a consulative document and 80,000 replies were received that eclipsed returns on other subjects. The SNPs are very keen on legalising gay marriage and rumours are going around the the results of the document was not quite what they wanted and was in variance to the stage managed opinion polls they had previously put forward.
They are now backing off, suggesting that it will wait until it is legalised in the whole of the UK. However, if that does not happen before the Independence referendum then all Scottish voters will know that one of the first acts of an independent Scotland would be to legalise gay marriages.
This will be fought tooth and nail and it will be a major issue in the independence referendum.
They are now backing off, suggesting that it will wait until it is legalised in the whole of the UK. However, if that does not happen before the Independence referendum then all Scottish voters will know that one of the first acts of an independent Scotland would be to legalise gay marriages.
This will be fought tooth and nail and it will be a major issue in the independence referendum.
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Hang on a minute, this might be a cheap deal.
18x Hawks, 26x CVR(T), 2x T42, 1x rusty submarine, a slack handful of SA80A1, and that'll be 3.5 billion please.
18x Hawks, 26x CVR(T), 2x T42, 1x rusty submarine, a slack handful of SA80A1, and that'll be 3.5 billion please.
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Since the assets belong to Betty, they won't be getting anything unless they buy it!
Despite this, the SNP defence policy seems to advocate the closure of Rosyth Dockyard, and acquiring an SSK fleet. Lets ignore the fact that no one in the UK builds SSKs, so Scotlands going to have to buy them overseas.
Bet the Clyde will love that, watching Scottish shipbuilding orders go to foreign yards to meet a defence requirement that makes no logical sense!
Bet the Clyde will love that, watching Scottish shipbuilding orders go to foreign yards to meet a defence requirement that makes no logical sense!