MFFO Request for help
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MFFO Request for help
Good Morning
I'm after some help from members as my brain is slowly shrinking ! I've been asked to write an article for aircraft magazine on the F3 and MFF operations. from what I recall the concept of MFF came about in the early 1980s as an idea of using TWU aircraft to supplement the RAF fighter force ( although I do recall in RAFG we took the Dutch and Belgian F16s on our wing). I have a copy of the 11 go SOPs from 1997 and there is no mention of MFF in any sections so I assume the concept of Mixed Fighter Force had been abandoned ?
Anyone any memories .... Obviously I deny ever taking any Hawks/ Hunters to the merge and rolling out in front of the threat !
Thanks in advance IB
I'm after some help from members as my brain is slowly shrinking ! I've been asked to write an article for aircraft magazine on the F3 and MFF operations. from what I recall the concept of MFF came about in the early 1980s as an idea of using TWU aircraft to supplement the RAF fighter force ( although I do recall in RAFG we took the Dutch and Belgian F16s on our wing). I have a copy of the 11 go SOPs from 1997 and there is no mention of MFF in any sections so I assume the concept of Mixed Fighter Force had been abandoned ?
Anyone any memories .... Obviously I deny ever taking any Hawks/ Hunters to the merge and rolling out in front of the threat !
Thanks in advance IB
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BAE Systems Hawk Wikipedia
From 1983 to 1986, some Hawks were equipped as short-range interceptor aircraft. 88 T1s were modified to carry two AIM-9L Sidewinder air-to-air missiles (AAMs) in addition to the centreline gun pod carrying a 30 mm ADEN cannon. These aircraft were named Hawk T1A. In a war, they would have worked in collaboration with Tornado F3 aircraft, which would use their Foxhunter search radars to vector the radarless Hawks against enemy targets. Such missions would have been flown by instructors. Conversions were completed in 1986. With the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War, RAF Hawks were no longer used in this manner. Hawks were used also as "aggressors", simulating air combat with Tornado ADVs
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Don't trust all you read on Wikipedia
I can clearly remember that in one of the defence reviews the purpose of the armed Hawks was clearly defined as being for use as part of a tiered defence BEHIND the UK east coast Bloodhound / Rapier missile line. I'm sure that was also the review which announced the arming of the Hawks
So the theory according to the politicians was you'd get the Phantom out at long range, the two Lightning squadrons as fast reaction aircraft on the ground for anything that got past, then the UK missile barrier behind and the Hawks ranging free behind the missiles in the UK. I'm sure that was the same review that announced the reforming of a third Lightning squadron - which never happened. I'm sure it would have been John Nott's 1982 f'up which preceded the Falklands
of course what may have really happened was probably quite different - but that was the way it was reported at the time in the press
If what you are saying is correct, then the RAF departed from the politicians announced intentions
I can clearly remember that in one of the defence reviews the purpose of the armed Hawks was clearly defined as being for use as part of a tiered defence BEHIND the UK east coast Bloodhound / Rapier missile line. I'm sure that was also the review which announced the arming of the Hawks
So the theory according to the politicians was you'd get the Phantom out at long range, the two Lightning squadrons as fast reaction aircraft on the ground for anything that got past, then the UK missile barrier behind and the Hawks ranging free behind the missiles in the UK. I'm sure that was the same review that announced the reforming of a third Lightning squadron - which never happened. I'm sure it would have been John Nott's 1982 f'up which preceded the Falklands
of course what may have really happened was probably quite different - but that was the way it was reported at the time in the press
If what you are saying is correct, then the RAF departed from the politicians announced intentions
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 12th Jul 2012 at 18:17.
The last MFF I participated in was in around 1994 with Chivenor Hawks attached to Leuchars for their TacEval, so it was still going on then.
Middle of a cold looking North Sea in a Hawk felt a little interesting; with the 100% DCO rate of the Hawks tied to the normal F3 DCO rate led to something slightly less than the 'M' in MFF. Hanging around to be told on TAD whatever that a passing F-15 had just slotted us again was also a little tiresome. We did surprise the odd F-16 as a sudden appearance of a Hawk halfway through his planned merge on the F-3 was good sport, although a little unsportsmanlike. Easy pickings when you catch them with their pants down.
Sadly such boasting rights were few and far between. Having 360 Sqn roll in behind us during a moment of boredom was a kick in the pants we didn't need after eating BVR shots all week. Being dispersed to Prestwick was more fun, with wicker chairs by the jet on Q - very WWII.
Middle of a cold looking North Sea in a Hawk felt a little interesting; with the 100% DCO rate of the Hawks tied to the normal F3 DCO rate led to something slightly less than the 'M' in MFF. Hanging around to be told on TAD whatever that a passing F-15 had just slotted us again was also a little tiresome. We did surprise the odd F-16 as a sudden appearance of a Hawk halfway through his planned merge on the F-3 was good sport, although a little unsportsmanlike. Easy pickings when you catch them with their pants down.
Sadly such boasting rights were few and far between. Having 360 Sqn roll in behind us during a moment of boredom was a kick in the pants we didn't need after eating BVR shots all week. Being dispersed to Prestwick was more fun, with wicker chairs by the jet on Q - very WWII.
I did this many times from both sides - Fighter and Hawk. I can't tell you what the Government had in mind, but the principle was very simple. Augment the number of platforms in the air and the number of AAMs that could be launched even if the Hawks were, potentially, sacrificial lambs.
The plus side was as above. The down side was that the F4s/F3s had to hold back on speed so as not to out-accellerate the Hawks, potentially reducing their Pk. But, it produced a a very effective force multiplier. Imagine the Soviet Hordes coming over the horizon to be faced with 20 (unidentified) fighters instead of 4 or 8.
No time to go into into it all tonight, but it was a very interesting concept that, generally, worked well. When the chips are down, be ready to launch everything you've got.
More if you wish.
Courtney
The plus side was as above. The down side was that the F4s/F3s had to hold back on speed so as not to out-accellerate the Hawks, potentially reducing their Pk. But, it produced a a very effective force multiplier. Imagine the Soviet Hordes coming over the horizon to be faced with 20 (unidentified) fighters instead of 4 or 8.
No time to go into into it all tonight, but it was a very interesting concept that, generally, worked well. When the chips are down, be ready to launch everything you've got.
More if you wish.
Courtney
Last edited by Courtney Mil; 12th Jul 2012 at 19:10.
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thanks so Far
yes the more i think about it the more naff it all seems 25 years on- it was of course day VFR only so my thinking now was despite it being a force multiplyer- did we in effect actually dilute the F3/FGR2 capability?- I do recall that it was actually quite a pain in bad weather taking the Hawks/Hunters to CAP. They had no INAS, etc so were pretty amazing at finding us back on cap and indeed finding their way home!- I feel again ( happy to be corrected) that where it worked best was in 2 ATAF when the F16s had pulse only radars - early 1980s. Sitting in an FGR2 ( normally limited to no 4gs!) it was a nice feeling getting to the merge with a brand new 9g F16 on the wing. I guess as the F3 became more capable , NVGs / JTIDS, Link 16 then the Hawk concept was all a bit difficult. My recollections are being deployed to Leeming with 234 Squadron and having a laugh ( pre F3 days) and also discovering how nice it was to be SDO for two weeks. I was in charge of the crypto as a spotty little Flying Officer- every day i had to issue TAD cards etc and collect them up post exc. The nice part came when i had to go back to Brawdy end of get ( elder Forrest) not a quick 1.10 in a Hawk oh no OC 234 decided i could drive his Mini back with the safe and all the old crypto. rule 1 never listen to the senior pilot who told me the best thing you can do "mate" is burn it then you can stop off on the way home. So being young free and gay in the carefree sense of the word once OC 234 departed i had a nice little bonfire near where the ATC building at Leeming is now. On my return feeling very pleased with myself the Sqn adj asked me where the Crypto was- ah i burnt it!!! - and his reply was so who witnessed that then??? - so 14 days of SDOs and no naked Phillipino dancing girls later i decided the senior pilot was actually not an amusing chap !
Thanks so far on the MFFO gen - can anyone recall the silent procedures...Wing waggle, bunt for contact, Fox 1 launch etc?? i think i burnt all my memories in 1986!
Thanks so far on the MFFO gen - can anyone recall the silent procedures...Wing waggle, bunt for contact, Fox 1 launch etc?? i think i burnt all my memories in 1986!
FFMs (Or Not)
For instance the Navy's T-8M Blue Fox Hunters would presumably have been useful?
In the mid 60s, some of the RN Hunter T8s (conventional model) were seemingly assigned to the "Air Defence of the UK."
Me and our Tame Crab were fingered to take a T8 with 4 x 100 gal drops (first problem – C of G ) from BY to Lossie to partake in a major UKAdex.
We launched from LM on an heroic GCI mission and found ourselves chasing a Vulcan inbound, way out over the North Sea. He was at 60 – easy . We were at 40 - staggering. (Second problem – gross optimism)
While we were considering (over a period of many minutes – whilst noticeably falling behind) whether there was any kind of manoeuvre that might allow us to bring our Main Armament to bear (a single ADEN) we observed a Lightning streaking in way overhead to take out our target.
It didn't seem sporting to complain that he'd "nicked our bird" and we were on different frequencies anyway, so we couldn't thank him. We returned to base (non-nuked – courtesy of the Lightning) and claimed we'd been on a boring Weather Recce. (Third problem – no-one believed us.)
On the real olden days, it was alleged that the RAN Sea Venoms (with lock-on radar but only 20mm cannon) would carry up to three Avon Sabres into battle with their Sidewinders. This was alleged to take place even in IMC which allegedly created something of a challenge for the Fire Control Officer as well as for the hangers-on.
LFH
