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Words come back to haunt you ?

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Words come back to haunt you ?

Old 6th Jul 2012, 11:52
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Words come back to haunt you ?

Moving around an accumulation of old magazines due to decorating. Picked up 'RAF Yearbook 2008' and allowed myself to be shamefully distracted for the decorating...

"The MRA4 has to be able to do a maritime reconnaissance role. There are still plenty of countries in the world that own, for example, attack submarines, and when we are a nation - as I hope we will be - that owns two CVFs in the middle of the next decade, I would suggest that you're not going to play fast and loose with the safety of those vessels."

ACM Sir Clive Loader, Air Command, RAF.

Don't suppose he'd want to discuss the implications of a certain decision, bearing in mind that he's conservative candidate for Police Commissioner in Leicestershire.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 12:35
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Whether we own 2 CVFs to protect or not, we are an island race and not to have MR capability is the most stupid decision since........... well I can't think of anything more stupid at the moment but when I do it will be the most stupid decision since that!

Doc C
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 12:40
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There will be another one along soon.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 13:00
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Since we only need carriers where we can't access a land base, and Nimrod needs a land base, and there's no big threat in the North Atlantic now; it would seem that his 2008 statement wasn't the best.
A carrier-borne MRA would seem to be what we need.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 13:10
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A carrier-borne MRA would seem to be what we need.
We have an MRA - Merlin! What is more the CVF will be able to carry lots of them.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 13:56
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A carrier-borne MRA would seem to be what we need
Can't think of how we would do that off the top of my head. You could scratch you head and spend billions working up a horribly complex and overly expensive solution, or you could just go for something along the lines of the Viking until a better idea comes along.

On reflection, lets go down the spend billions and come up with something complex.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 14:59
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Melchett, perhaps a compromise ? BAe to be supplied with a dozen S3 Viking airframes from the desert places and re-work them to V/STOL configuration. Timescale planned to 5 years and cost circa xyz £billion.
Fifteen years later, 3 are completed at final cost of circa 5x xyz £billions.
New government is elected and conducts a review. They get scrapped.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 15:08
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The only VSO I and many colleagues met and took an instant dislike to.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 16:28
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Originally Posted by Pheasant View Post
We have an MRA - Merlin! What is more the CVF will be able to carry lots of them.
Given the lack of a fixed-wing, or sufficient fix-wing, there would certainly be enough room.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 16:57
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At Waddo show last weekend, I spoke to the Saab reps by their MPA demo and they said with the increase of diesel subs in 'questionable' hands, it makes life very interesting for the ASW club. I was quite surprised to find out that the modern diesel subs are harder to find/track then the nuclear ones, from the Saab lot. I personally thought it was easier to track diesel as opposed to the ultra quiet nuclear lot.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 17:04
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I think ACM Loader's comments should be put in context.

He was the man who contradicted the Minister for the Armed Forces (Adam Ingram) when he wrote (confirmed what everyone knew anyway, but Ingram had flatly denied) in the XV230 BoI report that systemic airworthiness failings existed in MoD.

I dare say he was PNG among his senior colleagues, especially the retired ones like Alcock, Bagnall and Graydon who hadn't the honesty or integrity to put their hands up and confess they had overseen the failures and refused to correct them.

I know which one I'd rather have in the police post.

Last edited by tucumseh; 6th Jul 2012 at 17:05.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 17:06
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chopper2004

Why?

The diesel engine is (historically) only used to recharge the batteries when necessary. What you refer to as "diesel" submarines are actually electric submarines using battery power to drive propulsion systems. Compare the engine noise from a diesel car to that from a battery powered one! Battery driven submarines are very quiet.....

Last edited by Biggus; 7th Jul 2012 at 11:50.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 17:33
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It seems that earlier comments on this thread are being ignored. WE HAVE A MARITIME PATROL AIRCRAFT!!! The Merlin is superb at this role - speak to the guys and gals at a secret airbase in Cornwall. It is the dogs danglies and really rather competent at this role. The fixed wing brethren need to understand that they do not have a monopoly on ability or effectiveness. Need supplies delivered to a mountain site in Afghanistan? Answer...rotary. Want rescuing? Rotary. Need some bad men killed at close quarter? Rotary (AH - anyone care to argue?!). Need a maritime aircraft that can move with the fleet and kill subs - ...you know the rest...

Students in RAF flying training are now overwhelmingly asking for rotary as choice 1 as they want to fly on ops and go to war, make a difference, and see the sharp end. It used to be jets. They are history. It is now rotary, and has been for some time.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 17:59
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BI,

Planning on doing any deep field ASW (or even ASuW)? Say to counter a potential SSN-19 threat. How far out is your Merlin going to operate? How much time will it spend transiting to and from the CV, and how much time will it have on task when it gets there? Get a hint of a contact 100nm from your nearest asset and time late becomes a factor in the area size to search when you get something there, compare transit times for a 100kt ish asset vs a 300kt ish asset.

ASW and ASuW done properly are multi platform events. An MPA isn't the sole answer, neither is a helo. Each asset has its own strengths and weaknesses, and plays a part in providing a layered solution. One of the layers has been removed, end of story......
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 18:46
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Carrier based assets require a massive logistic trail which has to be delivered by sea. What happens when the SS is high and flyops are not possible? - you have an expensive venue for a cocktail party going around in circles.

Last edited by Phoney Tony; 6th Jul 2012 at 18:46.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 18:56
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I dare say he was PNG among his senior colleagues, especially the retired ones like Alcock, B*****l and Graydon who hadn't the honesty or integrity to put their hands up and confess they had overseen the failures and refused to correct them.
That'll be a large G&T please, tuc!

Last edited by BEagle; 6th Jul 2012 at 19:00.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 19:06
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Tuc, I certainly wouldn't take exception to anything you post on here. I have a great deal of respect for how you've been a determined contender for the truth on matters of airworthiness. If Mr Loader spoke the truth in respect of causal factors in the loss of XV230, then I'm impressed.

However, perhaps I wasn't quite clear enough in terms of where I was heading. Former high ranking officer who had potential to upset the apple cart for those worthless inhabitants of the Palace of Westminster is now firmly in their camp. So, highly unlikely to be willing to speak out against, say, David Cameron on the decision to cease having a long range maritime patrol capability.

My reason for opening the thread was simply that I had a casual read of the article and his words leapt out of the page. I wonder if he's lurking hereabouts?
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 19:39
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Anglian

I understand your point entirely. I'd just tend to give Sir Clive the benefit of any doubt because he has demonstrated honesty and integrity in the face of senior officers and politicians who were openly hostile toward anyone pointing out the airworthiness failings, were willing to lie to achieve their goals and haven't shown one bit of remorse even when caught lying. That they were found out is down to people like Loader, regardless of his political persuasion. But I accept that he is treading dangerous ground because the politicians' failure to act against these criminals shows where their loyalty lies.



Beags - You must be permanently ratted!
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 21:19
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Phoney Tony,

Come along dear chap, if the sea state's up you can't have a cockers p can you?

That's why we don't leave these things to amateurs!
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 21:41
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Baldeep,

I thought this thread was about other peoples' words coming back to haunt them, not the posters on here.

The word Patrol in Maritime Patrol implies endurance and range, neither of which the Merlin is overly endowed with in comparison with larger fixed wing platforms (I'm not saying the name lest we start the other thread up again )
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