....another medal question
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Scout Leaders and thier ilk are entitled to wear both ribbons on their uniform and the actual medals if the parade allows it. Saw quite a few civvies in Windsor over the weekend weraing medals - fine with me, if you've been awarded them be proud to wear them.
As a dealer I have in the past had identical medals issued in error to the same service recipient, so this is not a new problem.
- TTN
In the same vein, a senior - subsequently five star - officer on whose staff I served twice, discovered long long after WWII ended that he was actually eligible for the award of the Atlantic Star under the provisions of:
"Certain special conditions apply governing award of the Star for those Naval personnel entering service less than 6 months before the end of the qualifying period, provided it was the last operational theatre in which they served."
Application was duly made on his behalf, and the Atlantic Star very quickly turned up - accompanied by a Burma Star, despite the fact that he had not been within some 5000 miles of the place!
And yes, he kept it, but no, he didn't wear it .....
A propos the matter of wearing uniform after retirement, a few years ago the First Sea Lord of the day actively encouraged retired officers to wear uniform on appropriate occasions, and many do indeed so on the basis that they have moved from the Active List to the Retired List, and thus have not fully left naval service.
Oh to have the choice. My kit shrank shortly after I left! - GG
Mine fit me perfectly, although I must confess to not having added two items of bling subsequently authorised.
Jack
- TTN
In the same vein, a senior - subsequently five star - officer on whose staff I served twice, discovered long long after WWII ended that he was actually eligible for the award of the Atlantic Star under the provisions of:
"Certain special conditions apply governing award of the Star for those Naval personnel entering service less than 6 months before the end of the qualifying period, provided it was the last operational theatre in which they served."
Application was duly made on his behalf, and the Atlantic Star very quickly turned up - accompanied by a Burma Star, despite the fact that he had not been within some 5000 miles of the place!
And yes, he kept it, but no, he didn't wear it .....
A propos the matter of wearing uniform after retirement, a few years ago the First Sea Lord of the day actively encouraged retired officers to wear uniform on appropriate occasions, and many do indeed so on the basis that they have moved from the Active List to the Retired List, and thus have not fully left naval service.
Oh to have the choice. My kit shrank shortly after I left! - GG
Mine fit me perfectly, although I must confess to not having added two items of bling subsequently authorised.
Jack
Last edited by Union Jack; 24th May 2012 at 14:00.
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It is becoming increasingly common for retired Service personnel (and others) to wear medals at black tie event....and why not! Re the QDJM - there were some 425,000 minted - go figure who might reasonably be wearing them. Miniatures are not official medals so you might see anyone buying a set.
The current First Sea Lord is also encouraging retirees to wear uniform to appropriate events - dinners, Remembrance, weddings etc. For the RN you still hold the Queen's commission, just not on the Active List. Pity about the loss of an ID card though.
The current First Sea Lord is also encouraging retirees to wear uniform to appropriate events - dinners, Remembrance, weddings etc. For the RN you still hold the Queen's commission, just not on the Active List. Pity about the loss of an ID card though.
Miniatures are quite correct with black tie. They are not, however, for day wear on a suit, blazer, etc. I often had guys coming in wanting a set of miniatures for Remembrance Day, etc, as they somehow thought that wearing the full size medals was "showing off". I always had a go at talking them into wearing the full size medals, but ultimately as a civvy you can do what you like, as long as you dont start awarding yourself decorations you're not entitled to.
Grumpy Gramps - my No 5 shrank too. Flipping Alkit, no wonder they went out of business
Grumpy Gramps - my No 5 shrank too. Flipping Alkit, no wonder they went out of business
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Miniatures are quite correct with black tie.
I was given another ACSM; instead of a bar to the original which I already had. I thought quite funny at the time as it arrived in the post whilst on my terminal leave. I threw it into the attic with all the others and that's where they will stay.
Back to the original question, this is an error on the part of the medal office but in their defence, whoever applied for you should have asked you if you already had been awarded. Had, as a serviceman, you had been awarded the OSM without the bar, then your service in theatre as a civilian where the OSM and bar would have been awarded, you should have been awarded just the bar. If you had the bar in the first place then no further award. Regardless, all time counts towards the aggregate for the ACSM11 whether serving or not and you very definitely should only be wearing one medal. The purist may even say that you should return the second award to the medals office with an explanation (keeping the bar if applicable). I am not a purist and would keep the second award as curio and a tale to tell the grandchildren.
SL
SL
I believe only if the invitation specifies "Black Tie with Miniatures".
Re what to do with the spare medal, why not flog the spare and have a damn good night out on the proceeds, buy her indoors a nice present or, if you're feeling guilty, donate the (not inconsiderable) proceeds to your favourite charity?
What happens if, say, someone was awarded the MBE while in the service, then awarded another MBE as a civilian ? As the ribbons are slightly different would it be OK to wear both ?
Just asking.
Aaron.
Just asking.
Aaron.
You are correct, Sloppy. Strictly speaking, you are appointed to an order (say the Order of the British Empire) as a member, officer, commander etc, and given the appropriate "badge" as they are called, eg MBE, OBE, CBE etc. Once appointed you cannot, by definition, be admitted to the same order twice, but you may be raised, say, from member to officer, etc. You could already be a military MBE and subsequently became a civil OBE. In that case you would wear the badge of Officer of the Order (OBE) with the civilian ribbon (without the central stripe).
Incidentally I am not at all impressed with modern MBE's, OBEs etc, which are of pretty poor quality. These used to be made by Garrards or the Royal Mint, but I think they are now made by Toye Kenning and Spencer, who should really stick to darts medals!
Incidentally I am not at all impressed with modern MBE's, OBEs etc, which are of pretty poor quality. These used to be made by Garrards or the Royal Mint, but I think they are now made by Toye Kenning and Spencer, who should really stick to darts medals!
What happens if, say, someone was awarded the MBE while in the service, then awarded another MBE as a civilian?
Not strictly comparable I know, but I believe that a certain sporting lady who has been awarded an MBE (Mil) and subsequently appointed DBE (Civil), styles herself Dame Kelly Holmes DBE MBE.
Another little distinction was held by a former master of mine who was awarded an MBE (Mil) for gallantry "not in the face of the enemy" - just the siege of Malta! - and thus had the silver oak leaf emblem in addition. On his subsequent promotion to CBE (Mil), he was permitted to continue to wear the silver oak leaf emblem.
Now you've got me started, I also recall the case of the Vice Admiral who was put up for the award of the KCB which used to go to all members of the Admiralty Board who had not already received the award, but the - ahem! - Air Secretary of the day demurred on the grounds that X was not a seaman officer, so he was awarded a KBE instead. The very next year, it was the Royal Navy's periodic opportunity to award a GBE, and it was with great pleasure that the same Naval Secretary advised the same Air Secretary that the First Sea Lord had decided that it should be awarded to X, who was now a full Admiral!
Incidentally X was mentioned in despatches at 24 following the Battle of North Cape, awarded an MBE at 25, and subsequently a CBE, as well as having been at Dunkirk, involved in the hunt and sinking of the BISMARCK and the SCHARNHORST, at the Normandy landings, and present on board the USS MISSOURI at the signing of the Japanese surrender - not a bad record for someone who was "not a seaman officer", not least with appointment to no less than four different levels of the Order of the British Empire.
Jack
Not strictly comparable I know, but I believe that a certain sporting lady who has been awarded an MBE (Mil) and subsequently appointed DBE (Civil), styles herself Dame Kelly Holmes DBE MBE.
Another little distinction was held by a former master of mine who was awarded an MBE (Mil) for gallantry "not in the face of the enemy" - just the siege of Malta! - and thus had the silver oak leaf emblem in addition. On his subsequent promotion to CBE (Mil), he was permitted to continue to wear the silver oak leaf emblem.
Now you've got me started, I also recall the case of the Vice Admiral who was put up for the award of the KCB which used to go to all members of the Admiralty Board who had not already received the award, but the - ahem! - Air Secretary of the day demurred on the grounds that X was not a seaman officer, so he was awarded a KBE instead. The very next year, it was the Royal Navy's periodic opportunity to award a GBE, and it was with great pleasure that the same Naval Secretary advised the same Air Secretary that the First Sea Lord had decided that it should be awarded to X, who was now a full Admiral!
Incidentally X was mentioned in despatches at 24 following the Battle of North Cape, awarded an MBE at 25, and subsequently a CBE, as well as having been at Dunkirk, involved in the hunt and sinking of the BISMARCK and the SCHARNHORST, at the Normandy landings, and present on board the USS MISSOURI at the signing of the Japanese surrender - not a bad record for someone who was "not a seaman officer", not least with appointment to no less than four different levels of the Order of the British Empire.
Jack
Last edited by Union Jack; 25th May 2012 at 22:36.
What happens if, say, someone was awarded the MBE while in the service, then awarded another MBE as a civilian ? As the ribbons are slightly different would it be OK to wear both ?
Aaron.
Gentleman Aviator
I also understand from acquaintances who have progressed up the "something BE" ladder, that when "promoted within the order" as it is known, you also have to send the previous one back!
Which - if nothing else - solves the problem of wearing both! I also know of an RAF MBE and an OBE who got awarded the civilian variety, and so wore the civilian ribbon on their uniforms. Didn't half confuse SWOs!!
Rather like the aged Rockape who used to be CRO at a secret Hampshire rotary base in the 1970s - he wore his (old style) GSM ribbon in front of those for his WW2 medals, again to the despair of SWOs, until he pointed out it was for Palestine in 1936!!
Which - if nothing else - solves the problem of wearing both! I also know of an RAF MBE and an OBE who got awarded the civilian variety, and so wore the civilian ribbon on their uniforms. Didn't half confuse SWOs!!
Rather like the aged Rockape who used to be CRO at a secret Hampshire rotary base in the 1970s - he wore his (old style) GSM ribbon in front of those for his WW2 medals, again to the despair of SWOs, until he pointed out it was for Palestine in 1936!!
Last edited by teeteringhead; 26th May 2012 at 14:46.
The reason I ask is that I knew a guy who was awarded the MBE whilst a WO in the RAF and then subsequently I saw an article announcing another MBE for service to the RAFA community after he had retired from the RAF.
If one is appointed to a higher class within the order, one must return one's existing insignia in exchange for the more senior one, and cease using the junior post-nominal letters. Some people, however, have been appointed to both divisions, such as Dame Kelly Holmes, who has been appointed an MBE in the military division and a DBE in the civil division, and is therefore known as "Dame Kelly Holmes, DBE, MBE
Teeteringhead
Gentleman Aviator
My thanks also TTN, was never quite sure whether my leg was being pulled on the "sending back" dit.........
