The Fall of Singapore: The Great Betrayal -
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The Fall of Singapore: The Great Betrayal -
Just finished screening on BBC2 - will be in iPlayer shortly
Interesting if you want to know just how Japanese naval aviation benefitted from a couple of British spies, and has some interesting early film on - among others - HMS Argus and its aircraft
BBC iPlayer - The Fall of Singapore: The Great Betrayal
Interesting if you want to know just how Japanese naval aviation benefitted from a couple of British spies, and has some interesting early film on - among others - HMS Argus and its aircraft
BBC iPlayer - The Fall of Singapore: The Great Betrayal
I thought it was a great big story jumped up from nothing. The Japanese defeated the Russian Baltic fleet so their ship architects were more than adequate. All the work for Mitsubishi in the twenties was done by a French aircraft designer. The US Navy had its share of carriers in the thirties so the idea was not new.
The letting off that he got in the end is probably a reflection of how little use his information was.
Singapore is a different story.
The letting off that he got in the end is probably a reflection of how little use his information was.
Singapore is a different story.
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... Last night information never before known to the public was shown on BBC2 disclosing that thanks to the British Govt and 2 RAF officers (each later suspected of espionage) we naviely or incompetently gifted the Japanese with the knowledge and assistance that enabled Japan to build up and train their powerful fleet that enabled them to strike at Singapore and Pearl Harbour. One of the RAF officers involved was made a Lord
and although MI5 had information on them justifying charges of
Espionage - Churchill had all information and papers locked away for
70/80 years and after the war failed to keep his promise to have a full enquiry and investigation for the fall of Singapore - himself being heavily implicated.
..
and although MI5 had information on them justifying charges of
Espionage - Churchill had all information and papers locked away for
70/80 years and after the war failed to keep his promise to have a full enquiry and investigation for the fall of Singapore - himself being heavily implicated.
..
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Remind me whose side Japan was on in WW1?
Japan during World War I - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Don't forget, Italy too was on the allied side in WW1 when she saw which way things were going.
Japan during World War I - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Don't forget, Italy too was on the allied side in WW1 when she saw which way things were going.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 22nd May 2012 at 10:45.
Was it also a fact that when the Russian and the Japanese fleets were at each
throats before WW1 that some of the each fleets ships were built by Armstrong's in the Tyne side shipyards?
throats before WW1 that some of the each fleets ships were built by Armstrong's in the Tyne side shipyards?
Apart from those members of the public who read about it in the Telegraph in 2002, that is.
I've not the time to view the iPlayer, but presume that we're talking the Master of Semphill and Frederick Rutland here? Known about for over a decade at least, even if the National Archives has recently released more documents which add colour but nothing new.
And Sempill wasn't 'made a Lord'. He was the son of a peer, and since all peerages were hereditary until the Life Peerages Act in 1955, he inherited the title; 'made a Lord' suggests he was granted the title as some sort of reward, whereas the fact that he became peer was down to primogeniture, which hasn't been noted for taking espionage, treachery or other misdeeds into account.
I've not the time to view the iPlayer, but presume that we're talking the Master of Semphill and Frederick Rutland here? Known about for over a decade at least, even if the National Archives has recently released more documents which add colour but nothing new.
And Sempill wasn't 'made a Lord'. He was the son of a peer, and since all peerages were hereditary until the Life Peerages Act in 1955, he inherited the title; 'made a Lord' suggests he was granted the title as some sort of reward, whereas the fact that he became peer was down to primogeniture, which hasn't been noted for taking espionage, treachery or other misdeeds into account.
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"presume that we're talking the Master of Semphill and Frederick Rutland "
Correct
It did a pretty good job of destroying the reputations of both
Essentially the premise was that without those two, Japanese naval aviation would never have reached the peak which enabled it to launch the Pearl Harbour raid, and by implication Japan would not have entered WWII in the way it did
Further that their actions enabled the Japanese to sink the ships defending Singapore : the Price of Wales and Repulse, by naval air action so leaving Malaya open to a beach assault from the east, and in turn leading to the fall of Singapore
Correct
It did a pretty good job of destroying the reputations of both
Essentially the premise was that without those two, Japanese naval aviation would never have reached the peak which enabled it to launch the Pearl Harbour raid, and by implication Japan would not have entered WWII in the way it did
Further that their actions enabled the Japanese to sink the ships defending Singapore : the Price of Wales and Repulse, by naval air action so leaving Malaya open to a beach assault from the east, and in turn leading to the fall of Singapore
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 22nd May 2012 at 21:30.
Mitsubishi
I was amused by the comment of Fareastdriver that:
"All the work for Mitsubishi in the twenties was done by a French aircraft designer"
Herbert Smith of Sopwith ( plus a team of seven other British engineers) was contracted in February 1921 by the Nagoya factory of Mitubishi to assist in the design and manufacture of military aircraft. He led the design on the Navy Type 10 Carrier Fighter, Type 10 Carrier Reconnaissance Aircraft, Type 10 Carrier Torpedo Aircraft, Type 13 Carrier Attack Aircraft, before returning to the U.K. in June 1924.
Then in 1928 British designers , including Smith and G.E. Petty, were involved in the design competition in the U.K. of the subsequent Japanese Navy type 89 Carrier Attack Aircraft, the winning Blackburn design of which flew in the U.K .in late 1929.
Arguably the French must be given full credit for their influence on aircraft design and construction at the beginning of the 20th century, in total contrast to the extended and inconsequential fumbling on the other side of the Atlantic. However, the evolution of Mitsubishi carrier aviation in the '20's is an instance where it can be demonstrated that the British in fact had an overwhelming impact.
"All the work for Mitsubishi in the twenties was done by a French aircraft designer"
Herbert Smith of Sopwith ( plus a team of seven other British engineers) was contracted in February 1921 by the Nagoya factory of Mitubishi to assist in the design and manufacture of military aircraft. He led the design on the Navy Type 10 Carrier Fighter, Type 10 Carrier Reconnaissance Aircraft, Type 10 Carrier Torpedo Aircraft, Type 13 Carrier Attack Aircraft, before returning to the U.K. in June 1924.
Then in 1928 British designers , including Smith and G.E. Petty, were involved in the design competition in the U.K. of the subsequent Japanese Navy type 89 Carrier Attack Aircraft, the winning Blackburn design of which flew in the U.K .in late 1929.
Arguably the French must be given full credit for their influence on aircraft design and construction at the beginning of the 20th century, in total contrast to the extended and inconsequential fumbling on the other side of the Atlantic. However, the evolution of Mitsubishi carrier aviation in the '20's is an instance where it can be demonstrated that the British in fact had an overwhelming impact.
Mitsubishi
FarEastDriver.
Was it possibly Henri Vernisse, who worked on some designs with Mitsubishi c.1930?
Was it possibly Henri Vernisse, who worked on some designs with Mitsubishi c.1930?
Last edited by Haraka; 22nd May 2012 at 14:03. Reason: smelling pisstake
The Gloster Aircraft Company sold 50 Sparrowhawk fighters to the Imperial Japanese Navy in 1921. In 1927, 150 Gambet deck landing fighters were license built by Nakajima for service with the Imperial Japanese Navy as Nakajima A1N1s.
The final Folland design for Glosters was the F5/34 which had an uncanny similarity to the Zero.
The final Folland design for Glosters was the F5/34 which had an uncanny similarity to the Zero.
Last edited by izod tester; 22nd May 2012 at 17:43.
That's the one. He helped Mitsubishi get into the monoplane era.
Irrespective of who was helping who, the information given, and the effect, was hyped up beyond belief by the TV programme. Japan wa already a capable miltary power when they invaded China, long before Pearl Harbour.
Irrespective of who was helping who, the information given, and the effect, was hyped up beyond belief by the TV programme. Japan wa already a capable miltary power when they invaded China, long before Pearl Harbour.
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FareastDriver
I rather feel you missed the point - yes the Japanese certainly did have capable military power however the program wasn't about that and nor it deny that
The specific point it was making was about Japanese Naval Air Power - which if the programme was correct was developed from the teachings of the Semphill mission, and from the subsequent underhand dealings of Semphill and Rutland
The point theywere making was that while Japan had progressed to building her own warships (having been taught by the British), she lacked the ability to design and build carriers and to integrate aircraft with them. That imparted skill, and the details of the design of suitable carrier aircraft are what made the Japanese attacks possible.
Without those two, Japan would still have had its capital ships and army, but no carriers, and no carrier aviation
I rather feel you missed the point - yes the Japanese certainly did have capable military power however the program wasn't about that and nor it deny that
The specific point it was making was about Japanese Naval Air Power - which if the programme was correct was developed from the teachings of the Semphill mission, and from the subsequent underhand dealings of Semphill and Rutland
The point theywere making was that while Japan had progressed to building her own warships (having been taught by the British), she lacked the ability to design and build carriers and to integrate aircraft with them. That imparted skill, and the details of the design of suitable carrier aircraft are what made the Japanese attacks possible.
Without those two, Japan would still have had its capital ships and army, but no carriers, and no carrier aviation
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The sacrifice of Singapore was a political decision to protect India, the Jewel in the Crown. Muddled thinking and arrogance assumed an ability to defeat a perceived 'second world' enemy with military might as opposed to competent military thinking.
Singapore was possibly the catalyst that drove true 'combined ops' thinking in future war strategy. The sinking of the POW and Repulse was the last time the Fish-heads thought they could manage without air superiority, although they still have a bit of a problem with it.
It is well known that the Japanese force, striking from Malaya, was on its last legs and perhaps better intelligence would have changed the British response to their attacks. But hey, hindsight is a wonderful thing and as a campaign, it provides great 'what-if' examples for tactics and strategy.
In the meantime, a lot of good men died because the course followed was all that was thought best, and to judge wartime leaders by todays standards of information flow and intelligence gathering would be utterly inappropriate.
Heroes all.
Singapore was possibly the catalyst that drove true 'combined ops' thinking in future war strategy. The sinking of the POW and Repulse was the last time the Fish-heads thought they could manage without air superiority, although they still have a bit of a problem with it.
It is well known that the Japanese force, striking from Malaya, was on its last legs and perhaps better intelligence would have changed the British response to their attacks. But hey, hindsight is a wonderful thing and as a campaign, it provides great 'what-if' examples for tactics and strategy.
In the meantime, a lot of good men died because the course followed was all that was thought best, and to judge wartime leaders by todays standards of information flow and intelligence gathering would be utterly inappropriate.
Heroes all.
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Correct to explain that Sempill 'became' - and was not 'made' a Lord
and yes - true Sempill's involvement had been revealed earlier in
the Telegraph - but makes little differenc to the revelations that Sempill had been in the pay of Japan for some time - and he was as late as
Dec 15th 1941 discovered making phone calls to the Jap embassy (Japan attacked Singapore and Hawaii on Dec 7th - or 8th depending which side of the pedantic date line is chosen).
On the suggestion that Singapores demise was a deliberate sacrifice
by Whitehall - In this latest regurgitation of the numerous failings and events leading to the disaster can be added a further most serious event - the results of which would guarantee to strengthen Japans decision to attack.
In November 1940 the SS Automoden was sunk by the German raider
Atlanta some miles off the Java coast. Before the Automoden sunk the German boarding party recovered a top secret lead weighted bag
containing documents from Whitehall addressed to Air Marshal Brook Popham Singapore giving confidential and most secret details of Singapores and Malayas defences - including strategy weakness and Britains general policy and plans for defence in the Far East in the event of war with Japan - In effect the papers confirmed that Singapores defences were near enough myth and bluff - As history would prove.
...
and yes - true Sempill's involvement had been revealed earlier in
the Telegraph - but makes little differenc to the revelations that Sempill had been in the pay of Japan for some time - and he was as late as
Dec 15th 1941 discovered making phone calls to the Jap embassy (Japan attacked Singapore and Hawaii on Dec 7th - or 8th depending which side of the pedantic date line is chosen).
On the suggestion that Singapores demise was a deliberate sacrifice
by Whitehall - In this latest regurgitation of the numerous failings and events leading to the disaster can be added a further most serious event - the results of which would guarantee to strengthen Japans decision to attack.
In November 1940 the SS Automoden was sunk by the German raider
Atlanta some miles off the Java coast. Before the Automoden sunk the German boarding party recovered a top secret lead weighted bag
containing documents from Whitehall addressed to Air Marshal Brook Popham Singapore giving confidential and most secret details of Singapores and Malayas defences - including strategy weakness and Britains general policy and plans for defence in the Far East in the event of war with Japan - In effect the papers confirmed that Singapores defences were near enough myth and bluff - As history would prove.
...
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Can someone explain how the fall of Singapore could possibly contribute to preserving India?
If anything, Singapore protected access to the Indian Ocean from the China Sea. By taking Singapore the Japanese were able to enter the Indian Ocean at will and potentially threaten Burma, Ceylon, India and the African east coast.
In fact the remains of the British fleet had to be withdrawn variously to Africa and (what is now) Diego Garcia to hide until reinforcements could be sent from the Atlantic fleet - leaving India open to an invasion
Happily an option the Japanese chose to decline
If anything, Singapore protected access to the Indian Ocean from the China Sea. By taking Singapore the Japanese were able to enter the Indian Ocean at will and potentially threaten Burma, Ceylon, India and the African east coast.
In fact the remains of the British fleet had to be withdrawn variously to Africa and (what is now) Diego Garcia to hide until reinforcements could be sent from the Atlantic fleet - leaving India open to an invasion
Happily an option the Japanese chose to decline
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 22nd May 2012 at 21:36.
My point, pasir, is that this was touted as being something earth-shatteringly new, when it isn't. The fact that the Telegraph reported the fact that Sempill was a spy ten years ago means that we got classic oversell of what ought to be an interesting programme. It'd been entirely legitimate for the Beeb to say something along the lines of '... and new information casts an even more astonishing light on the activities of this man, who may ultimately have been protected by Winston Churchill', rather than the sensationalist claims about unknown evidence.
The loss of the papers about Singapore's lack of defences on the Automedon [sic] has also been known about for quite some time as well; there've been at least two books on that published no earlier than five years ago.
Since I've actually co-written a book on the Pacific war (available in all good remainder bins), I did know when the war out there started, thanks.
The loss of the papers about Singapore's lack of defences on the Automedon [sic] has also been known about for quite some time as well; there've been at least two books on that published no earlier than five years ago.
Since I've actually co-written a book on the Pacific war (available in all good remainder bins), I did know when the war out there started, thanks.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
pasir, to correct your post, Japan invaded Malaya on 8 Dec 1941. It was not until 7 Feb 1942 that they invaded Singapore and on the 15th Singapore fell. Digressing slightly they then invaded Java on 28 Feb and on 12 Mar Java fell. It was on 28 Feb that a Japanese submarine sank my father's ship which was south of Java.
