No more GR4 WSOs?
An advert from 1971...
The trg may have stopped for now, but what about:
1. RIVET JOINT & AWACS?
2. MQ9 REAPER (or its replacement)?
3. FSTA's MSOs?
4. If we ever get another MPA - seedcorn is just that!?
5. When we realise that Typhoon's replacement might want more than a single seat for night low-level attack or for the SEAD/DEAD role?
6. Sentinel if it survives the chop?
It all seems a bit premature for now and with a 2-3 year lead time, I hope we're bright enough to look forward.
iRaven
The trg may have stopped for now, but what about:
1. RIVET JOINT & AWACS?
2. MQ9 REAPER (or its replacement)?
3. FSTA's MSOs?
4. If we ever get another MPA - seedcorn is just that!?
5. When we realise that Typhoon's replacement might want more than a single seat for night low-level attack or for the SEAD/DEAD role?
6. Sentinel if it survives the chop?
It all seems a bit premature for now and with a 2-3 year lead time, I hope we're bright enough to look forward.
iRaven
Last edited by iRaven; 20th May 2012 at 08:44.
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Looks like the fishing is good Leon!
I'm a bit surprised as I didn't see any bait in your posts, all straight down the line however Saturday evening/Sunday morning is the perfect time to try
Had never heard of AEOps trying the back seat of Tornado, was it a fair trial or rigged to prove what was wanted already?
I'll have the beef please!
I'm a bit surprised as I didn't see any bait in your posts, all straight down the line however Saturday evening/Sunday morning is the perfect time to try
Had never heard of AEOps trying the back seat of Tornado, was it a fair trial or rigged to prove what was wanted already?
I'll have the beef please!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
1. RIVET JOINT & AWACS? Glass cockpit, 2 pilots.
2. MQ9 REAPER (or its replacement)? WSO? or pilot
3. FSTA's MSOs? Exactly, an MSO not a WSO
4. If we ever get another MPA - seedcorn is just that!?Maybe
5. When we realise that Typhoon's replacement might want more than a single seat for night low-level attack or for the SEAD/DEAD role?Why are we locked on this low level business? SAM go low, AAA goes low, SAF goes low, why not be smart?
6. Sentinel if it survives the chop?See E3
Apart from an MPA, do you really need a WSO with navigation skills or could you use a pilot or similar who is also taught navigation skills?
2. MQ9 REAPER (or its replacement)? WSO? or pilot
3. FSTA's MSOs? Exactly, an MSO not a WSO
4. If we ever get another MPA - seedcorn is just that!?Maybe
5. When we realise that Typhoon's replacement might want more than a single seat for night low-level attack or for the SEAD/DEAD role?Why are we locked on this low level business? SAM go low, AAA goes low, SAF goes low, why not be smart?
6. Sentinel if it survives the chop?See E3
Apart from an MPA, do you really need a WSO with navigation skills or could you use a pilot or similar who is also taught navigation skills?
RPA Sensor Operators - USAF Plan
In the USAF, each Predator / Reaper RPA crew comprises one Pilot and one Sensor Operator. The USAF has set a capability target of 65 x 24/7 RPA orbits by 2013 - 10 crews are required to sustain each orbit. This has created a requirement for 650 Sensor Operators. The USAF has now created a new enlisted career field to satisfy this requirement.
RPA Ramp Up
As an aside, the linked article is almost 2 years old and there are already more RPA pilots than F-16 pilots in the USAF.
RPA Ramp Up
As an aside, the linked article is almost 2 years old and there are already more RPA pilots than F-16 pilots in the USAF.
3. FSTA's MSOs? Exactly, an MSO not a WSO
The FSTA IPT were told this - and the reasons why....
But no, they had to know better and decided not to learn from the mistakes of others...
Last edited by BEagle; 21st May 2012 at 06:50.
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PN
Shall I spell it out for you? Rivet Joint has a navigator. It has a navigator now, and it has a requirement for a navigator in the future. So, how does that not fit with talking about future requirements?
I'm sure a third pilot could be used instead of a nav/WSO. After all, if the role was difficult, it would be carried out by an engineer.
Stick to what you do best old fella. I'm sure there are some who are interested in your reminiscences.
S-D
Shall I spell it out for you? Rivet Joint has a navigator. It has a navigator now, and it has a requirement for a navigator in the future. So, how does that not fit with talking about future requirements?
I'm sure a third pilot could be used instead of a nav/WSO. After all, if the role was difficult, it would be carried out by an engineer.
Stick to what you do best old fella. I'm sure there are some who are interested in your reminiscences.
S-D
Last edited by salad-dodger; 21st May 2012 at 06:58.
I should add that the primary issue with using a non-FJ back seater (or navigator from another role) was the training cost. Significant enough for initial qualification, but to maintain sufficient proficiency in the AAR role, hugely expensive without a high quality procedure trainer. Even then, you need more instructors than otherwise, taking them away from their primary role, so more MSOs are needed...and more instructors...
Rumours reaching me are that the RAF is even intending to use these role-inexperienced non-navigator/ non-air engineers to control FJ formations as well as conducting AAR....
Even the Luftwaffe's ex-FJ back seaters find that pretty difficult and have had the odd 'moment', nicht wahr?
If you want to see how a 21st Century 3-person flight deck tanker should be operated, just watch the RCAF operating their combat-proven CC 150T. Eh?
Rumours reaching me are that the RAF is even intending to use these role-inexperienced non-navigator/ non-air engineers to control FJ formations as well as conducting AAR....
Even the Luftwaffe's ex-FJ back seaters find that pretty difficult and have had the odd 'moment', nicht wahr?If you want to see how a 21st Century 3-person flight deck tanker should be operated, just watch the RCAF operating their combat-proven CC 150T. Eh?
Last edited by BEagle; 21st May 2012 at 07:19.
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Sorry, somewhat slow reply... MiniGunDiplomat's description of "Nav on Ops" is a classic indicator to me of the Helmand-myopia gripping the Army and the SH force. The GR4s in Afghanistan operate all over the country, supporting ISAF forces across the different RCs and provinces, and it is a source of great frustration to me that so many people, even RAF people, only think of Helmand when they think of Afghanistan. There still isn't much nav on ops though - the GPS/IN solution pretty much takes care of that side of business!
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5. When we realise that Typhoon's replacement might want more than a single seat for night low-level attack or for the SEAD/DEAD role?Why are we locked on this low level business? SAM go low, AAA goes low, SAF goes low, why not be smart?
Bear
Knight,
take your point and agree with most of your post. However, it is a trade off and not letting the Taleban paint a CH outline on their RPG launcher is often a more pressing reality than knowing the name of the crappy hamlet in the 3 o clock.
That said, there was a concerted effort to keep nav skills sharp when the guys/gals were back from ops.
Take care,
MGD
take your point and agree with most of your post. However, it is a trade off and not letting the Taleban paint a CH outline on their RPG launcher is often a more pressing reality than knowing the name of the crappy hamlet in the 3 o clock.
That said, there was a concerted effort to keep nav skills sharp when the guys/gals were back from ops.
Take care,
MGD
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No more GR4 WSOs?
MSO? Apologies for my ignorance, what does it stand for?
When it comes to the Rivet Joint, what would be the most likely Crew lineup? Similar to the E3 minus the WSO's?
When it comes to the Rivet Joint, what would be the most likely Crew lineup? Similar to the E3 minus the WSO's?
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MGD: No worries - I completely get why you have other priorities. Just the same as in the FJ world; knowing precisely where you are generally isn't as important as the big picture tactical situation - unless you're delivering weapons in our case, or I guess arriving at an HLS or the like in yours. The fact that so many people, especially brown jobs, seems to forget there are other parts of Afghanistan than Helmand is a bit of a raw nerve for me, and you inadvertently touched on it, so sorry if my reply seemed a bit harsh! Peace and love.
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MGD, Naving is about situational awareness as much as it is about anything.
Knowing the name of the hamlet is important whether it is in Helmand or Hertfordshire. If you suddenly start going down, whether due to incoming fire or engine failure, knowing exactly where to ask help to attend is important.
Some can do that better than others. Generally people who have been trained to navigate find it easier and are better at it.
Knowing the name of the hamlet is important whether it is in Helmand or Hertfordshire. If you suddenly start going down, whether due to incoming fire or engine failure, knowing exactly where to ask help to attend is important.
Some can do that better than others. Generally people who have been trained to navigate find it easier and are better at it.
Wouldn't believe everything you see on UKAR. Remember it's a spotters site full of experts!!
Wiretensioner
End Of An Era
Aww, heck. Looks like some of them spotters DO know what they're talking about.
Wiretensioner
End Of An Era
Aww, heck. Looks like some of them spotters DO know what they're talking about.
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Sorry, airpolice, can't agree with you there.
If you go down, the name of the nearby village is irrelevant. Support and rescue need Lat/Long or grid, that's all. And there a multitude of technical solutions to getting that position, in extremis a smartphone will do.
If you go down, the name of the nearby village is irrelevant. Support and rescue need Lat/Long or grid, that's all. And there a multitude of technical solutions to getting that position, in extremis a smartphone will do.
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Yeah, that's all very well if you have time to get your iPhone out and get a ref.... but if it's a short mayday then you don't get a chance to do anything else..............
I like to be able to state where I am at any given time, just in case a longer, more detailed conversation is not an option.
I like to be able to state where I am at any given time, just in case a longer, more detailed conversation is not an option.