MOD Balances the books
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Joined: Jul 2000
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From: Peripatetic
But the announcement also confirmed no Nimrod replacement.
.............But other programmes have been extensively cut back. There will be no replacement for the early warning Nimrod surveillance aircraft, significantly fewer armoured fighting vehicles and no plans to equip the armed forces with new remotely operated drones, which have become a key part of US defence capabilities...........
He also confirmed that there will be no stop to the significant cuts planned in armed forces personnel as a result of the new budgets. Army numbers will still fall from 102,000 troops to 82,000 – while RAF numbers will fall from 44,000 to 39,000...............
.............But other programmes have been extensively cut back. There will be no replacement for the early warning Nimrod surveillance aircraft, significantly fewer armoured fighting vehicles and no plans to equip the armed forces with new remotely operated drones, which have become a key part of US defence capabilities...........
He also confirmed that there will be no stop to the significant cuts planned in armed forces personnel as a result of the new budgets. Army numbers will still fall from 102,000 troops to 82,000 – while RAF numbers will fall from 44,000 to 39,000...............
Joined: Sep 2007
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From: Somewhere Sunny
Whilst there is some cautious optimism here, what about some investment in 'people policy'? We are frequently told that our people are our greatest asset - but where are we seeing anything outwith the EP that will keep the 200,000-odd SP and CS motivated?
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From: Great Britain
If there is no money in the programme for Nimrod MPA replacement, and SofS indicated neither would there be in the foreseeable future, why do we have ex-Nimrod aircrew spread around the world "retaining Seed-corn capability" - seed-corn for what?
By the by, my view is that we should have a Nimrod replacement. But if the project is unfunded we should not be retaining unemployable aircrew.
By the by, my view is that we should have a Nimrod replacement. But if the project is unfunded we should not be retaining unemployable aircrew.
Joined: Oct 2010
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From: Kilmarnock,United Kingdom
5 Forward
As per Hansard. This is what the Defence Secretary's said:-
"As has been said from the Dispatch Box before, maritime surveillance from conventional aircraft is not currently funded in the programme. That is one of the capability gaps that my predecessor chose to accept, and a risk that we have chosen to manage. A number of different technologies will be available to deal with it as we approach the end of the decade. That is one of the decisions that the armed forces committee will have to make when it considers the prioritisation for the head room in the planned equipment budget."
So a manned MPA before 2020 does looks very unlikely balanced budget or not!
As per Hansard. This is what the Defence Secretary's said:-
"As has been said from the Dispatch Box before, maritime surveillance from conventional aircraft is not currently funded in the programme. That is one of the capability gaps that my predecessor chose to accept, and a risk that we have chosen to manage. A number of different technologies will be available to deal with it as we approach the end of the decade. That is one of the decisions that the armed forces committee will have to make when it considers the prioritisation for the head room in the planned equipment budget."
So a manned MPA before 2020 does looks very unlikely balanced budget or not!
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: UK
Hmmmm, wonder if this is part of the balancing act.
From article from Defense News online:
Britain's Ministry of Defence is considering changes to the way the construction of the Royal Navy's 65,000-ton aircraft carriers is run, according to defense sources.
An independent team of senior executives and others appointed by the Defence Equipment & Support (DE&S) arm of the MoD have been working for months on recommendations to sharpen the focus in the way the 5 billion-pound ($8 billion) program is managed once the integration and test phases get underway, they said.
An MoD spokeswoman said the work is a “routine internal review of the procurement and project control processes in place on the [Queen Elizabeth]-class project to ensure they are suitably efficient and robust to allow us to deliver this complex project on time and to cost.”
The indication of possible changes comes days after the government reverted to an earlier plan to operate F-35B short-takeoff, vertical-landing variants of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter on the carriers and abandoned its 2010 decision to use the catapult-launched F-35C.
From article from Defense News online:
Britain's Ministry of Defence is considering changes to the way the construction of the Royal Navy's 65,000-ton aircraft carriers is run, according to defense sources.
An independent team of senior executives and others appointed by the Defence Equipment & Support (DE&S) arm of the MoD have been working for months on recommendations to sharpen the focus in the way the 5 billion-pound ($8 billion) program is managed once the integration and test phases get underway, they said.
An MoD spokeswoman said the work is a “routine internal review of the procurement and project control processes in place on the [Queen Elizabeth]-class project to ensure they are suitably efficient and robust to allow us to deliver this complex project on time and to cost.”
The indication of possible changes comes days after the government reverted to an earlier plan to operate F-35B short-takeoff, vertical-landing variants of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter on the carriers and abandoned its 2010 decision to use the catapult-launched F-35C.
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From: The Roman Empire
5F6B,
If, and it's a big "if" considering that the coalitions plans for getting the UK annual deficit down to ZERO by 2015 have moved to the right by at least a couple of years (which still doesn't allow for any fallout from the Greek disaster unfolding right now), P-8s were ordered in 2015, we wouldn't see them in the UK before 2018.....
My reading of the "balancing the budget" article is that it means between now and 2020, so I can't see any MPA being purchased before then. Of course the next government might think differently, but I can't see it being the highest issue on their defence agenda!
I expect that by the time we got back into the manned MPA game, if we ever do, most of the MPA seedcorn will have already retired!
If, and it's a big "if" considering that the coalitions plans for getting the UK annual deficit down to ZERO by 2015 have moved to the right by at least a couple of years (which still doesn't allow for any fallout from the Greek disaster unfolding right now), P-8s were ordered in 2015, we wouldn't see them in the UK before 2018.....
My reading of the "balancing the budget" article is that it means between now and 2020, so I can't see any MPA being purchased before then. Of course the next government might think differently, but I can't see it being the highest issue on their defence agenda!
I expect that by the time we got back into the manned MPA game, if we ever do, most of the MPA seedcorn will have already retired!
Last edited by Biggus; 15th May 2012 at 18:06.
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From: SW England
Well with the so called £8 Bn unallocated funding budget and the £4Bn reserve surely we can now get the remaining 10 Chinook (or more if possible!) ordered up so we can actually get the RWS we were promised? Also a few more Type 45s and Astutes would be nice plus dare I ask also some MPA?
Bit of a wish list but far better than a facile we've balanced the books statement along with a regurgitation of old news stories from Hammond.
Bit of a wish list but far better than a facile we've balanced the books statement along with a regurgitation of old news stories from Hammond.
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From: Hertfordshire
Biggus,
I agree with your conclusions, but I don't think the plan has ever been to reduce the annual deficit to zero. I believe it' s more like £30bn. Most economies ran a deficit, even in the good times. In the early 2000s when things were going well the UK annual deficit averaged around £27bn or thereabouts, so the plan is to return us to normal and manageable levels of borrowing. It's true this target has slipped by a couple of years.
The loss of MPA was the worst part of the SDSR in my view, and I am uneasy to say the least that there don't appear to be any medium-term plans to resurrect it. The handling of the Nimrod MRA4 project was appalling though, with a financial horror story to boot, which left the system vulnerable to its eventual fate. I just hope we don't get any ideas about small production runs of customised aircraft when we do re-think our MPA stance. That is way too expensive.
Poseidon should be well into its stride by the time we do think again, and ought to be affordable, especially if we can combine our efforts with other European buyers and don't overly customise our specification.
I agree with your conclusions, but I don't think the plan has ever been to reduce the annual deficit to zero. I believe it' s more like £30bn. Most economies ran a deficit, even in the good times. In the early 2000s when things were going well the UK annual deficit averaged around £27bn or thereabouts, so the plan is to return us to normal and manageable levels of borrowing. It's true this target has slipped by a couple of years.
The loss of MPA was the worst part of the SDSR in my view, and I am uneasy to say the least that there don't appear to be any medium-term plans to resurrect it. The handling of the Nimrod MRA4 project was appalling though, with a financial horror story to boot, which left the system vulnerable to its eventual fate. I just hope we don't get any ideas about small production runs of customised aircraft when we do re-think our MPA stance. That is way too expensive.
Poseidon should be well into its stride by the time we do think again, and ought to be affordable, especially if we can combine our efforts with other European buyers and don't overly customise our specification.
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From: Great Britain
Poseidon should be well into its stride by the time we do think again, and ought to be affordable
...and, of course will be placed in the hands of the RN where the seedcorn will by then rest (Merlin crews). But I would say that.
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From: Outside the Matz
"my view is that we should have a Nimrod replacement. But if the project is unfunded we should not be retaining unemployable aircrew"
And my view for what it is worth, is that the Government could not stomach two massive reversals on SDSR decisions (F35 and MPA) Give it a year, let the dust settle post PR12 and some of the Reserves that we now appear to have will find its way into an MPA.
As for the guys on Seedcorn I think you will find that they are assisting our allies plug our capability gap.
And my view for what it is worth, is that the Government could not stomach two massive reversals on SDSR decisions (F35 and MPA) Give it a year, let the dust settle post PR12 and some of the Reserves that we now appear to have will find its way into an MPA.
As for the guys on Seedcorn I think you will find that they are assisting our allies plug our capability gap.
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From: Great Britain
As for the guys on Seedcorn I think you will find that they are assisting our allies plug our capability gap.
I am sure there would be an outcry if maritime FJ FW was removed i.e. delete CEPP and the RN kept its FW aircrew by sending them to the US, France etc in the hope that some government in the future brought it all back.
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From: Hertfordshire
Since when did the UK MoD fund other nation's capability gaps??....
