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Civil servant in uniform

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Civil servant in uniform

Old 6th May 2012, 21:40
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Civil servant in uniform

I have the opportunity of employment as a commissioned civil servant in uniform, but am not really sure of the responsibilities and rights that would go with the rank? The post will involve me being the reporting officer for some junior ranks. I am currently serving as a snco! but will be leaving in the near future. Any help and information would be appreciated,
TC
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Old 6th May 2012, 22:15
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What on earth is a "commissioned civil servant"?
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Old 6th May 2012, 22:22
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A civil servant who has a rank and wears uniform, in this case a Flt Lt uniform.
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Old 6th May 2012, 22:26
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Personnel of the RAF Reserve (Civilian Component): RAFR(CC) are formally appointed to uniformed posts; the officers are gazetted, appear in the Air Force List (when it was published), get the scroll from HM, wear uniform which is indistinguishable from other service personnel, and often hold command authority over regular personnel. In some cases their duties are more onerous than those of the RAFR holding what the service classes as ‘real reserve appointments’.

These RAFR(CC) are, however, recruited through the civil service channels and are paid against an equivalent civil service grade eg: Sqn Ldr = C2. Often, RAFR(CC) are the ‘public face’ of the RAF in areas such as community relations and they can be involved in administering some elements of our international commitments. Those who administer the air cadets, control and oversee the work of the RAFVR(T) and provide professional and service related ‘competences’ which VR(T) personnel don’t have.
Posted by Old Duffer a few weeks ago explains the basics...
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Old 6th May 2012, 23:25
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Didn't civilian Met officers hold similar ?
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Old 7th May 2012, 01:58
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No. Met Office guys and girls are RAFVR.
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Old 7th May 2012, 08:08
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...the officers are gazetted, appear in the Air Force List (when it was published), get the scroll from HM,...
Still haven't received my commissioning scroll... I suppose I won't get it now, as it's been well over 20 years since I joined the RN, and I've been out for a fair few as well.

What training do these 'commissioned Civil Servants' do? I assume at the very least they do the Vicars and Tarts course?
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Old 7th May 2012, 08:10
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Met Office guys and girls are RAFVR
Daft question then......

Are they subject to the same requirements as regular RAF personnel such as medical, CCS and fitness test? I can imagine some of the Met people who I knew chugging around the gym..... not.
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Old 7th May 2012, 08:13
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TC, I may be a little out of date, to get a commission as a CS you will still need to pass OASC and attend IOT. With an RAFR commission you will have. Seniority commensurate with your rank, but junior to all regular officers of the same rank. Your responsibilities remain identical to all the officers you already know.

Writing assessments for a CS is no different from any other assessments except that unlike a military assessment which affects promotion and ultimately pay, for a CS your appraisal will affect whether they get an annual bonus.

You will also be irked receiving the pay of a cpl if you have to report on a sgt .
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Old 7th May 2012, 08:19
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The IOT is probably the V&T course but you need to get selected first.

Provided you remain in your desk bound CS role you won't need the CCS etc but there are lots of other exciting courses opn to you. Equality and Diversity, GPC, H&S possibly, Security Officer, Service Fund Accounts, Media Ops etc etc
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Old 7th May 2012, 08:26
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Writing assessments for a CS is no different from any other assessments except that unlike a military assessment which affects promotion and ultimately pay, for a CS your appraisal will affect whether they get an annual bonus.

I was in the other situation - my second RO was CS. I was not too bothered about promotion (PAS) and the end of career was near, but I never had my ACR on time to meet the promotion board (despite constant reminders) and the wording wasn't particularly military. I always wondered what would have happened had I redressed? (He was a good chap though, horribly overtasked, and I let it lie).

As to CS courses.... Working for the MOD meant that I had to do all the silly CS courses in addition to the military ones. The biggest bugbear was having to keep the CS computer system (PPPA?) up to date in addition to JPA - double the work (Leave, Courses, Post Information, Terms of Reference and of course keeping my ethic origin updated each year in case it changed).....

Last edited by Wensleydale; 7th May 2012 at 08:34. Reason: Adding a bit
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Old 7th May 2012, 08:46
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the wording wasn't particularly military
Even the military single services do not work to the same hymm sheet.

Army: Short, succcint, bullet points = Lots of unused text.
RAF: Empty OJAR narrative means nothing positive to write, and therefore an unwritten negative.

RAF working for the Army; enough said.
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Old 7th May 2012, 10:45
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Ref the OP, there are quite a few cases of CS in uniform, the RFA staff make up the majority, then there are CS who are enrolled in the RCNC, and there are certain Logistics Liaison Officer posts which carry an equivalent mil rank and were uniformed. The one I had most dealings with was based at Charleston, SC and wore the uniform of a Lt.Cdr..
RMAS staff also wore uniform before they were outsourced to SERCO Denholm.

Pontious, way back the V&T (or Knife&Fork) course was the Lieutenants Greenwich Course, as you say, a number (4 to 6) CS were selected annually to attend.. I was on LGC80 but never had to wear a uniform. It was later re-named the Initial Staff Course (ISC)
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Old 7th May 2012, 11:34
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When you say Civillian in uniform you can only be talking about the RAF!
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Old 7th May 2012, 17:33
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Lets Quash Some Myths

First of all the RAF Civil Component Commission still exists but is closed to new entrants. So whatever Top Cover thinks he's joining it ain't that.

The comment about Met men refers to the Mobile Met Unit who are not RAFVR but Sponsored Reserves in the RAFR. And yes this means they have to pass all the usual nause: they go through basic reeserve recruit training at Halton and if applicable reserve officer training at Crawnell. Once in they have the same liability for CCS etc.

Still intrigued as to just what Top Cover thinks he's getting in to though.
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Old 7th May 2012, 17:39
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DAP has seconded military, RAF and Navy mostly. Could this be it?

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Old 7th May 2012, 17:53
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Those you refer to in DAP are serving Military wearing suits as they are seconded to the CAA.

The MET branch in the RN are serving Military personnel, the RAF are civilians (the met staff that is ).

I seem to remember that to wear a military uniform one needs to have done Military induction. I think it is a reference to the Geneva convention or something. This is where the RAF came unstuck with the putting civilians in uniform within simulators without them ever having gone through Cranwell. Cannot remember what they were called now. not Retired Officers, not sponsored reserves some other type of service.
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Old 7th May 2012, 18:29
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I'm a VR(T) type, but I like to keep abreast of these things...

AFAIK Impiger is right - the RAFR(CC) is closed to new entrants ...e.g. in relation to the ATC, what few Wing ExO's have been recently appointed have been on Civil Service Military Support Function (MSF) TCOS, and subsequently commissioned into the VR(T) to give them an Air Force rank (MOD C2/Sqn Ldr equivalent, as previously explained by Old Duffer).

In such circumstances, CS MSF appointees commissioned into the VR(T) would not even need to complete the VR(T) Officers Initial Cse, assuming they were ex-regular Offrs.

As I understand it, in RAFR(CC) days, unless you were an ex-reg Offr (and thus already completed IOT), one had to complete ROIT with the Auggies.

I'd also be keen to hear more about this top_cover!

Cheers
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Old 7th May 2012, 21:47
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Widger I think the ones you mean were called "Aviation Officers" (AVOs). Not just in sims - some Air Traffickers as well - but all IIRC ex-officers.
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Old 7th May 2012, 22:27
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Ash, correct.

I was appointed to the RAFR in my previous rank in the RAF. There was no mention of CC even though I was in the civil service and paid by the CS.

If you have not previously held a commission then you must undergo selection and training commensurate with the service you are wishing to join as whatever flavour of air force you join, RAF, RAFR, RAFVR, RAFVR(T), RAuxAF, you are still an officer and can well discipline airmen placed under orders.

As for the public face of the RAF, visitors (and indeed Army officers) knew no different. I served on civilian committees and boards, worked with civilian organisations, provided an RAF presence over a considerable area etc etc. and enjoyed a level of autonomy denied to mere civilian civil servants.
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