The desert gives up one of the RAF's finest
The P-40 has ended up in this state. Images at following link.
https://forum.keypublishing.com/show...64#post2424664
https://forum.keypublishing.com/show...71#post2424671
https://forum.keypublishing.com/show...64#post2424664
https://forum.keypublishing.com/show...71#post2424671
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
FWIW I would rather see a restored aircraft than a box of bits. That said, at East Kirkby there is a crash recovered P51 I think. Set out as if AAIB it looks more like z Flight cutaway drawing.
Anyway, I had heard from an RAFM manager that the RAFM insisted on restoration to flying state before putting an aircraft on display. He thought that a waste of money. Don't know it that was true or still applies.
Anyway, I had heard from an RAFM manager that the RAFM insisted on restoration to flying state before putting an aircraft on display. He thought that a waste of money. Don't know it that was true or still applies.
I had heard from an RAFM manager that the RAFM insisted on restoration to flying state before putting an aircraft on display
( e.g. the Halifax
)
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That's a fine abortion of a paint scheme. A 10-yo Airfix kit builder would do better 
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It's worse than that, didn't the RAFM secure the recovery by exchanging a Spit? In their care for the recovery costs, it was a time capsule and now that has been lost by a totally poor and thoughtless treatment. The treatment of it reminds me of this....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/a...storation.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/a...storation.html
It's worse than that, didn't the RAFM secure the recovery by exchanging a Spit? In their care for the recovery costs, it was a time capsule and now that has been lost by a totally poor and thoughtless treatment. The treatment of it reminds me of this....
Elderly woman destroys 19th-century fresco with DIY restoration - Telegraph
Elderly woman destroys 19th-century fresco with DIY restoration - Telegraph
Yes, it's no surprise the Director General of the RAFM was replaced shortly after. Sadly his replacement is a 'modern' CEO who seems intent on ripping the heart out the place by replacing all these pesky aeroplanes with modenr interactive exhibits
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Did anyone figure out the Human Factors aspect of the navigational blunder?
From Wadi Natrun to Merseh Matruh should have been a simple trip, navigationally. 289°T for 171nm. You're going along the Western edge of the Delta to the coast. Green then blue to the right of the aircraft, sand to the left.
The crash site is 70° to the left of that track at a range of 231nm from departure.
How could he make such a blunder? There's no mention of a sandstorm.
Sure, he might have forgotten to set the DI to the compass, or perhaps stowed a pistol on the compass, but the sight picture should have been as wrong to him as it was to his wingman.
Was he perhaps burned out from battle fatigue?
From Wadi Natrun to Merseh Matruh should have been a simple trip, navigationally. 289°T for 171nm. You're going along the Western edge of the Delta to the coast. Green then blue to the right of the aircraft, sand to the left.
The crash site is 70° to the left of that track at a range of 231nm from departure.
How could he make such a blunder? There's no mention of a sandstorm.
Sure, he might have forgotten to set the DI to the compass, or perhaps stowed a pistol on the compass, but the sight picture should have been as wrong to him as it was to his wingman.
Was he perhaps burned out from battle fatigue?
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FWIW - MANY MANY years ago - late 1950's- an oil exploration team found a b24 in the libyan ? dunes- near perfect condition - name as I recall was ' lady be good ". they eventually found a few traces of crew nearby who had laid out rocks into an arrow as they thouiht they were headed to coast
was a TV program about it.
Turns out during the time period, the germans had set up some phony RDF stations with the aim of confusing the planes returning from bombing raids, at night. In this case the plane had run out of gas, and most- All (?) the crew had bailed out at the last minute. As I recall, they found thermos with tea, and a radio that with minimum check and powered up still worked.
It may well be plane under discussion here suffered the same problem- following a phony RDF station.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Be_Good_(aircraft)
was a TV program about it.
Turns out during the time period, the germans had set up some phony RDF stations with the aim of confusing the planes returning from bombing raids, at night. In this case the plane had run out of gas, and most- All (?) the crew had bailed out at the last minute. As I recall, they found thermos with tea, and a radio that with minimum check and powered up still worked.
It may well be plane under discussion here suffered the same problem- following a phony RDF station.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Be_Good_(aircraft)
Last edited by CONSO; 1st Jan 2018 at 19:43. Reason: corrected name and added link
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Conso, Lady be Good certainly but it was a navigational error. The radio compass, a GCE IIRC, could give an ambiguous direction as it did not have a sense aerial. The navigator expected the beacon to be ahead when they had already passed it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Be_Good_(aircraft)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Be_Good_(aircraft)
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Did anyone figure out the Human Factors aspect of the navigational blunder?
From Wadi Natrun to Merseh Matruh should have been a simple trip, navigationally. 289°T for 171nm. You're going along the Western edge of the Delta to the coast. Green then blue to the right of the aircraft, sand to the left.
The crash site is 70° to the left of that track at a range of 231nm from departure.
How could he make such a blunder? There's no mention of a sandstorm.
Sure, he might have forgotten to set the DI to the compass, or perhaps stowed a pistol on the compass, but the sight picture should have been as wrong to him as it was to his wingman.
Was he perhaps burned out from battle fatigue?
From Wadi Natrun to Merseh Matruh should have been a simple trip, navigationally. 289°T for 171nm. You're going along the Western edge of the Delta to the coast. Green then blue to the right of the aircraft, sand to the left.
The crash site is 70° to the left of that track at a range of 231nm from departure.
How could he make such a blunder? There's no mention of a sandstorm.
Sure, he might have forgotten to set the DI to the compass, or perhaps stowed a pistol on the compass, but the sight picture should have been as wrong to him as it was to his wingman.
Was he perhaps burned out from battle fatigue?
Could have been a simple error such as setting the Direction Indicator 90 degrees out from the compass.
It was easy enough to do on the Provost T1 which is why we checked the DI against the runway on take off.
He could have flown at right angles to his course; realized his mistake too late and turned North for the coast.
It was easy enough to do on the Provost T1 which is why we checked the DI against the runway on take off.
He could have flown at right angles to his course; realized his mistake too late and turned North for the coast.
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If the aircraft was restored to an authentic finish it would not be so bad. There is nothing authentic about the colours, the finish or the markings. I shudder to think what these muppets would have done with the Victory.
I'm afraid that's the state of the art in Egypt these days. It's simiar to the crude concrete "restorations" of many of the hyroglyph panels on the walls of the temples at Karnac and Habu, and Hatchetsup's temple near the valley of the kings (to name but three). They look like they were done by a primary-school craft class...
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The story makes today's Times ...
Full story behind the paywall at https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...tion-j0h6w67wg
The comments are fairly scathing too. Apparently this airframe should have gone to the RAF Museum, and swapped with Spitfire PK664. However, the deal was never completed due to 'turbulence' in Egypt, and the whereabouts of PK664 is now apparently uncertain.
A Royal Air Force fighter plane that survived 70 years in the Western Desert after crash-landing during the Second World War has been ruined by a “hideous” restoration, experts say.
Aviation historians accused Egyptian authorities of turning the perfectly preserved P-40 Kittyhawk into a “badly made Airfix model” before displaying it at a military museum at El Alamein.
Aviation historians accused Egyptian authorities of turning the perfectly preserved P-40 Kittyhawk into a “badly made Airfix model” before displaying it at a military museum at El Alamein.
The comments are fairly scathing too. Apparently this airframe should have gone to the RAF Museum, and swapped with Spitfire PK664. However, the deal was never completed due to 'turbulence' in Egypt, and the whereabouts of PK664 is now apparently uncertain.
Surely some transparency (even financial) is now beholden from those who did the deal involving PK664 ?
At the time of the debacle RAFM stated:
"In 2012 the museum undertook a joint project with Kennet Aviation to recover RAF Kittyhawk ET574 from the Egyptian desert in exchange for one of the Spitfires from the museum's collection.
"The aircraft has been successfully retrieved and for the time being remains in secure storage in Egypt.
"Given the uncertain political situation in Egypt however there is a possibility that Kittyhawk may never be returned to the United Kingdom."
The report values the grounded Spitfire at £200,000. ( My Italics) An airworthy Spitfire with some historic significance is generally valued at between £1 million to £3 million.
I just wonder how much this airframe will come quietly back on the market for ,when it finally resurfaces......
At the time of the debacle RAFM stated:
"In 2012 the museum undertook a joint project with Kennet Aviation to recover RAF Kittyhawk ET574 from the Egyptian desert in exchange for one of the Spitfires from the museum's collection.
"The aircraft has been successfully retrieved and for the time being remains in secure storage in Egypt.
"Given the uncertain political situation in Egypt however there is a possibility that Kittyhawk may never be returned to the United Kingdom."
The report values the grounded Spitfire at £200,000. ( My Italics) An airworthy Spitfire with some historic significance is generally valued at between £1 million to £3 million.
I just wonder how much this airframe will come quietly back on the market for ,when it finally resurfaces......
Aah, so that is my question on History and Nostalgia answered comprehensively
Haraka,any further info on your last,#58 ?
Sycamore .Nothing to add. In summary, as I understand it, it would appear that the RAFM paid a U.K.organisation( seemingly Kennet) with a Spitfire (donated to them in good faith by MoD) to recover the P-40's remains from the desert to an initial place of safe keeping in Egypt, pending their return to U.K. This Kennet apparently did and so discharged their responsibility for that part of the operation. It would then appear, for whatever reasons, ( and without compensation) that the Egyptian authorities later appropriated the P-40 for their own purposes, the end result of which is now evident.
Basically the U.K. funded this sensitive recovery of an RAF aircraft flown by a deceased RAF Pilot, which the Egyptians then simply grabbed, gratis, for their own ends.
Basically the U.K. funded this sensitive recovery of an RAF aircraft flown by a deceased RAF Pilot, which the Egyptians then simply grabbed, gratis, for their own ends.
Last edited by Haraka; 4th Jan 2018 at 12:17.