RAF Lodge?
Guest
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Sorry TM! I just thought this was all quite amusing. Masonry is just one of those subjects that people seem to get FAR too worked up about for their own good.
I'll go back to my playpen now. I'll exercise my basic right to remain anon, if you don't mind!!
I'll go back to my playpen now. I'll exercise my basic right to remain anon, if you don't mind!!
Guest
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"You still want to force innocent men to declare membership of a lawful society?"
In the Forces, Police and Judiciary, yes, I do. Just as I'd want them to declare their membership of the Socialist Workers Party, Combat 18, or even the Labour Party if they had any real involvement in it. There's enough justification for a sensible precaution, whether it's strictly necessary or not.
In this day and age, quite apart from the worries about corruption, the Masons' refusal to admit women is also sufficient for me to be very antipathetic towards them, and to favour sanctions against them - and I feel just the same about any form of stupid or unnecessary racial or sexual discrimination. (Don't want women Paras, do want them in the Groucho club).
PS: Kenneth Noye. Recent. Topical (ish) and very definitely a Mason who used his freemasonry to stay ahead of the law. He's my example.
But, if it helps at all, I know he's NOT TYPICAL.
In the Forces, Police and Judiciary, yes, I do. Just as I'd want them to declare their membership of the Socialist Workers Party, Combat 18, or even the Labour Party if they had any real involvement in it. There's enough justification for a sensible precaution, whether it's strictly necessary or not.
In this day and age, quite apart from the worries about corruption, the Masons' refusal to admit women is also sufficient for me to be very antipathetic towards them, and to favour sanctions against them - and I feel just the same about any form of stupid or unnecessary racial or sexual discrimination. (Don't want women Paras, do want them in the Groucho club).
PS: Kenneth Noye. Recent. Topical (ish) and very definitely a Mason who used his freemasonry to stay ahead of the law. He's my example.
But, if it helps at all, I know he's NOT TYPICAL.
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Small Cheese
Agreed on the heated debate bit - that's why I tried to kill the thread earlier on but the originator of the thread got the wrong end of the stick, bless him. Oh well. Don't worry about staying sneakybeaky - I was taking the mick
Jacko
Glad you managed to scrape something out of the bottom of the barrell - finally. So that one name condemns everybody huh? Daft bugger. I think you owe Adastral a pint.
Agreed on the heated debate bit - that's why I tried to kill the thread earlier on but the originator of the thread got the wrong end of the stick, bless him. Oh well. Don't worry about staying sneakybeaky - I was taking the mick
Jacko
Glad you managed to scrape something out of the bottom of the barrell - finally. So that one name condemns everybody huh? Daft bugger. I think you owe Adastral a pint.
Guest
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Thanks to all for your responses - I have certainly learned a lot. Clearly an emotive topic, but I think its run its course now.
TM - pas des problems. As a newcomer to the site, I had no way of knowing that I was raising an old issue. Having said that,the number of responses indicate that there is still plenty of interest in the issue! Back into my box....
Guest
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Just got back from an Installation and Dinner in Fife. Had a thoroughly enjoyable day with a bunch of congenial gentlemen (Sorry, Jacko, no ladies....yet?).
Unfortunately, we didn't get round to discussing world domination, but the evening was more cordial for it.
Still, a proud mason, still proud to serve. Let's hope that a minority of small minded politicians don't force loyal members to reconsider their futures in public service.
Come on Jacko, just one pint down at the Lodge... I promise to keep the goat tethered?!!
Unfortunately, we didn't get round to discussing world domination, but the evening was more cordial for it.
Still, a proud mason, still proud to serve. Let's hope that a minority of small minded politicians don't force loyal members to reconsider their futures in public service.
Come on Jacko, just one pint down at the Lodge... I promise to keep the goat tethered?!!
Guest
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I am sure we can all accept that the masons are altruistic and that their lodges are worthy charitable organisations. But why should anyone want to join what is certainly a covert (if not a strictly secret) society, unless they believe it brings certain priviliges and advantages ? After all, there are many well-known, well organised charities of unimpeachable reputation that they could join, from the churches through the Salvation Army to the British Legion.
The secretiveness of the Masons is bound to attract suspicion of nepotism and mutual back-scratching. We all know (or think we know) of cases where someone has been promoted clearly beyond his natural ceiling, or where favours have been granted to individuals, which were only "explained" by the later discovery that the favoured party was a mason. In the public service, where the taxpayer's dosh is involved in large lumps, probity and fairness must not only present but must be seen to be so. Anecdotal evidence of favouritism corrupts and undermines the system.
When I was approaching retirement in the early '80s I did the Business Management course run for the services at that time by PCL. All students were asked to fill out a questionnaire on how they made initial contact with their eventual employer (jobs were scarce for those aged 50+ at that time). In order of frequency, over a number of years, the answers came out as follows:
- Contacts made while still serving (huge majority)
- Golf club
- Church
- On commuter train (1st Class)
- Advertised vacancy (very few)
Masonry was not mentioned; but this only increased suspicion. If masonry does not help you to find a congenial job when you retire, what's it for?
The Welsh Assmenly has at last found something useful to discuss: whether members should be required to register their membership of the freemasons as an "interest". Perhaps all the public services should follow their lead. An index held on some government web site should do.
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presto digitate
The secretiveness of the Masons is bound to attract suspicion of nepotism and mutual back-scratching. We all know (or think we know) of cases where someone has been promoted clearly beyond his natural ceiling, or where favours have been granted to individuals, which were only "explained" by the later discovery that the favoured party was a mason. In the public service, where the taxpayer's dosh is involved in large lumps, probity and fairness must not only present but must be seen to be so. Anecdotal evidence of favouritism corrupts and undermines the system.
When I was approaching retirement in the early '80s I did the Business Management course run for the services at that time by PCL. All students were asked to fill out a questionnaire on how they made initial contact with their eventual employer (jobs were scarce for those aged 50+ at that time). In order of frequency, over a number of years, the answers came out as follows:
- Contacts made while still serving (huge majority)
- Golf club
- Church
- On commuter train (1st Class)
- Advertised vacancy (very few)
Masonry was not mentioned; but this only increased suspicion. If masonry does not help you to find a congenial job when you retire, what's it for?
The Welsh Assmenly has at last found something useful to discuss: whether members should be required to register their membership of the freemasons as an "interest". Perhaps all the public services should follow their lead. An index held on some government web site should do.
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presto digitate
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Very well said.
While people like me still think: "No smoke without fire", surely it's in Mason's own interests to declare their membership, and thereby help to rid us all of our prejudices about the secrecy and potential for corruption. It's like DNA profiling - only the guilty have anything to fear.
That's in society at large. In the Police or the Forces, I'd still rather be safe than sorry.
Adastral,
It's not the goat that worries me, it's you lot laughing at my legs when I roll up the old trouser-leg.
JN
While people like me still think: "No smoke without fire", surely it's in Mason's own interests to declare their membership, and thereby help to rid us all of our prejudices about the secrecy and potential for corruption. It's like DNA profiling - only the guilty have anything to fear.
That's in society at large. In the Police or the Forces, I'd still rather be safe than sorry.
Adastral,
It's not the goat that worries me, it's you lot laughing at my legs when I roll up the old trouser-leg.
JN
Guest
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I am not a mason and, as an agnostic, would be inellegible to join. I do however, sympathise with many of their (openly declared) ideals. The fact that they do not shout about their good work is, in my view, a commendable thing as it is suggestive that they are doing charitable work more for the sake of that work than for their organisation's benefit. After all, look at the charitable work done by the forces (less now than used to be done) - we publicise it at least at a local level in order to gain good PR for us. Suspect motivation? Certainly works well come ACR time!
Before 'buzzwords' were invented, one of the buzzwords of the armed forces would have been 'service'. Admittedly that now appears to have been replaced by 'retirement options'. However, as masonry encourages tolerance, support of others (including, but not exclusively, other masons) and a high moral code, surely a mason's code would be something we would want to see in our officers. Could be that we wouldn't be in the awful state we are if more of our leaders, at all levels, applied the same standards to themselves whether they were masons or not. Every mason that I have met in the forces (that has admitted to be a mason, anyway) has been a decent sort. Paul W did some free consultancy for me to help me win a small claims court case when I lived opposite him and his actions are typical of everyone I have known to be a mason. (There Paul, now you know who I am! Normal email is [email protected])
Are a disproportionate number of our promoted also members of the brotherhood? Possibly, possibly not, but it's impossible to tell either way unless we conform to Jacko's plans for registering all members. Even if it were the case, does it prove that the secret connections enhance professional advancement or that decent blokes that give a damn about other people get promoted ahead of others? If it's not the case, it shows that being a mason brings little personal gain other than spending time with like-minded people. I have seen some total wasters get promoted - we all have - but they have been the type that has ignored their primary
One aspect of their 'secret society' status that I do appreciate is that I have NEVER had a mason try to ram their involvement down my throat. Hurrah! Unlike other serving Born Again Christians, New Labour members, card-carrying Tories and Man U supporters. I have seen all these other groups give overly generous reports to their unofficial 'members' and have had all of these groups annoy the hell out of me by being overly public. Especially the Man U fans who really should be secret, silent, outlawed and ashamed of themselves! ;-) Whilst I support their right to their own beliefs, I object to being a subject of a conversion crusade.
Finally, Jacko, since I have been on this board you have come across to me as a rarity - a reasonable and thoughtful journalist, open to sensible debate. Sadly, on this thread, your bigoted and unreasonable posts have sullied much of your good image in my eyes. And probably in the eyes of others too.
[This message has been edited by opso (edited 08 April 2001).]
Before 'buzzwords' were invented, one of the buzzwords of the armed forces would have been 'service'. Admittedly that now appears to have been replaced by 'retirement options'. However, as masonry encourages tolerance, support of others (including, but not exclusively, other masons) and a high moral code, surely a mason's code would be something we would want to see in our officers. Could be that we wouldn't be in the awful state we are if more of our leaders, at all levels, applied the same standards to themselves whether they were masons or not. Every mason that I have met in the forces (that has admitted to be a mason, anyway) has been a decent sort. Paul W did some free consultancy for me to help me win a small claims court case when I lived opposite him and his actions are typical of everyone I have known to be a mason. (There Paul, now you know who I am! Normal email is [email protected])
Are a disproportionate number of our promoted also members of the brotherhood? Possibly, possibly not, but it's impossible to tell either way unless we conform to Jacko's plans for registering all members. Even if it were the case, does it prove that the secret connections enhance professional advancement or that decent blokes that give a damn about other people get promoted ahead of others? If it's not the case, it shows that being a mason brings little personal gain other than spending time with like-minded people. I have seen some total wasters get promoted - we all have - but they have been the type that has ignored their primary
One aspect of their 'secret society' status that I do appreciate is that I have NEVER had a mason try to ram their involvement down my throat. Hurrah! Unlike other serving Born Again Christians, New Labour members, card-carrying Tories and Man U supporters. I have seen all these other groups give overly generous reports to their unofficial 'members' and have had all of these groups annoy the hell out of me by being overly public. Especially the Man U fans who really should be secret, silent, outlawed and ashamed of themselves! ;-) Whilst I support their right to their own beliefs, I object to being a subject of a conversion crusade.
Finally, Jacko, since I have been on this board you have come across to me as a rarity - a reasonable and thoughtful journalist, open to sensible debate. Sadly, on this thread, your bigoted and unreasonable posts have sullied much of your good image in my eyes. And probably in the eyes of others too.
[This message has been edited by opso (edited 08 April 2001).]
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Er, actually opso you've got me guessing. I'll send on the prune e-mail for fear of sending something to the wrong person. I think I know who you are, but I really have helped out a lot of people over the last few years.
Flatus veteranus - there really are people in this world who don't look at every organisation and say 'what's in it for me?'. When I became a Freemason in 1984, at the age of 27 I didn't even think about retirement jobs nor any possible promotion (still waiting). I've joined many organisations and most of them have involved more giving than taking. That's not an odd thing to do.
opso seems to have hit it on the head about our charitable giving. We all give according to our means (and when we're broke we don't give at all). Why do we have to make a song and dance about what we do? Why can't we be private?
Some people may think that it is strange (juvenile) that a group of grown men come from different places, dress in uniform clothes they don't normally wear, perform a ritual to a set of rules and procedures laid down over time and then go out for a drink and a meal afterwards..... but then that's football players for you.
Perhaps if Freemasons performed their rituals in public there would be people travel to pay to watch the best performers. I'd like to think that I'm a particularly polished performer of ritual and might be likened to Beckham (only with a brain!).
Anyone prepared to pay me £25K a week to roll up my trouser leg?
Flatus veteranus - there really are people in this world who don't look at every organisation and say 'what's in it for me?'. When I became a Freemason in 1984, at the age of 27 I didn't even think about retirement jobs nor any possible promotion (still waiting). I've joined many organisations and most of them have involved more giving than taking. That's not an odd thing to do.
opso seems to have hit it on the head about our charitable giving. We all give according to our means (and when we're broke we don't give at all). Why do we have to make a song and dance about what we do? Why can't we be private?
Some people may think that it is strange (juvenile) that a group of grown men come from different places, dress in uniform clothes they don't normally wear, perform a ritual to a set of rules and procedures laid down over time and then go out for a drink and a meal afterwards..... but then that's football players for you.
Perhaps if Freemasons performed their rituals in public there would be people travel to pay to watch the best performers. I'd like to think that I'm a particularly polished performer of ritual and might be likened to Beckham (only with a brain!).
Anyone prepared to pay me £25K a week to roll up my trouser leg?
Guest
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Sorry you feel like that Opso!
It may be that the strength of my feelings on this makes me look like a bigotted tw@t - but it's one of those rare subjects that seems to have some degree of black and white. It's NOT THE SAME but I'd have similarly strong views about (say) National Front membership by serving policemen. It may not affect them at work, (they'd have passed selection, etc. after all) but I'd rather not take the risk, or risk the adverse public perception.
I'm not sure that opposing Freemasonry within the forces is bigotted. My suspicion of the movement in wider society probably is.
It may be that the strength of my feelings on this makes me look like a bigotted tw@t - but it's one of those rare subjects that seems to have some degree of black and white. It's NOT THE SAME but I'd have similarly strong views about (say) National Front membership by serving policemen. It may not affect them at work, (they'd have passed selection, etc. after all) but I'd rather not take the risk, or risk the adverse public perception.
I'm not sure that opposing Freemasonry within the forces is bigotted. My suspicion of the movement in wider society probably is.
Guest
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Question for you Jacko.
If Freemasons where to declare themselves on a register in the armed forces, what would it prove?
You never replied to my earlier comments that, short of writing 'I am a Freemason' on my 7500, noone on the promotion board will know. Even if they did the chances that they any of them would be masons and, more importantly, that it would make any difference, are very remote.
All it would serve to do is highlight me as a scapegoat for those who have not been promoted to say 'he only got picked up because he is a mason'. (Not that I have, unfortunately!)
I still assert that you are more likely to benefit from being a golfer (which is good because I am also one!?) or a rugby player (I enjoy watching it, does that count?!).
I was a mason before I joined the Service and hardly saw anything to do with masonry in the forces until very recently. (Over 10 years). I would be very agrieved to be 'blackmarked' because of my association with this ancient organization.
Just because it is secretive, it should not be compared to the other militant organizations that you mentioned.
Freemasonry forbids all discussion of a political or religious nature. The Grand Lodges of Scotland, Ireland and england steadfastly refuse to take positions on any such matter.
The 'disparate loyalties' mentioned in the recently cancelled DCI concerning the craft is a load of old bo&*&ks! If Chris Mullin is trying to tell me that I am going to be more loyal to another serviceman because he is a mason he is as sad and disillusioned as I think he may be.
Why is it that this society is increasingly being dictated to by a number of petty minded individuals who enjoy going on their own personal crusades? I would have thought that the issues like Clause 28, the Freemasons and Fox hunting are, in the great scheme of things, far less important than re-establishing the education system, re-vitalizing the Armed Forces and sorting out the Foot and Mouth epidemic?
Given that the arguments have always been about perception rather than substance, I hope that the politicians start focusing on doing what is best for the silent majority and not the vocal minority.
On a lighter note, I am with you PW. I could do with getting paid for my floor work. If footballers can get as much as they do for their labours, surely we are worth a few bob?
It's a pity that all the work I do for the Lodge goes unsung... or will it be included in future, in my ACRs, if I am on a register?!!!
If Freemasons where to declare themselves on a register in the armed forces, what would it prove?
You never replied to my earlier comments that, short of writing 'I am a Freemason' on my 7500, noone on the promotion board will know. Even if they did the chances that they any of them would be masons and, more importantly, that it would make any difference, are very remote.
All it would serve to do is highlight me as a scapegoat for those who have not been promoted to say 'he only got picked up because he is a mason'. (Not that I have, unfortunately!)
I still assert that you are more likely to benefit from being a golfer (which is good because I am also one!?) or a rugby player (I enjoy watching it, does that count?!).
I was a mason before I joined the Service and hardly saw anything to do with masonry in the forces until very recently. (Over 10 years). I would be very agrieved to be 'blackmarked' because of my association with this ancient organization.
Just because it is secretive, it should not be compared to the other militant organizations that you mentioned.
Freemasonry forbids all discussion of a political or religious nature. The Grand Lodges of Scotland, Ireland and england steadfastly refuse to take positions on any such matter.
The 'disparate loyalties' mentioned in the recently cancelled DCI concerning the craft is a load of old bo&*&ks! If Chris Mullin is trying to tell me that I am going to be more loyal to another serviceman because he is a mason he is as sad and disillusioned as I think he may be.
Why is it that this society is increasingly being dictated to by a number of petty minded individuals who enjoy going on their own personal crusades? I would have thought that the issues like Clause 28, the Freemasons and Fox hunting are, in the great scheme of things, far less important than re-establishing the education system, re-vitalizing the Armed Forces and sorting out the Foot and Mouth epidemic?
Given that the arguments have always been about perception rather than substance, I hope that the politicians start focusing on doing what is best for the silent majority and not the vocal minority.
On a lighter note, I am with you PW. I could do with getting paid for my floor work. If footballers can get as much as they do for their labours, surely we are worth a few bob?
It's a pity that all the work I do for the Lodge goes unsung... or will it be included in future, in my ACRs, if I am on a register?!!!
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Paul Wesson
While I totally respect your motives (and your legal erudition!), can you explain to us why, when you were choosing a charity to join, you chose the Masons rather than the "transparent" ones. It is rather like asking BCCI investors, who are now sueing the Bank of England for failing in its role as banking regulator, why they passed up Barclays, Lloyds, HSBC and NatWEst to seek out a bank based in the near Near East, which was widely rumoured to have dodgy connections?
You have reminded us that freedom of association is enshrined in the Human Rights Act. What about transparency of government? Surely it is not unreasonable to expect public servants to be open about their connections and loyalties?
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presto digitate
While I totally respect your motives (and your legal erudition!), can you explain to us why, when you were choosing a charity to join, you chose the Masons rather than the "transparent" ones. It is rather like asking BCCI investors, who are now sueing the Bank of England for failing in its role as banking regulator, why they passed up Barclays, Lloyds, HSBC and NatWEst to seek out a bank based in the near Near East, which was widely rumoured to have dodgy connections?
You have reminded us that freedom of association is enshrined in the Human Rights Act. What about transparency of government? Surely it is not unreasonable to expect public servants to be open about their connections and loyalties?
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presto digitate
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Now its my turn to be upset.
Opso as a Man Utd fan I think your remarks are equally bigoted.
However as this is a professional pilots rumour network military forum, I don't give a stuff. Just like this topic, relevance, I don't care for the debate.
I am sure it has a place but not here.
Opso, I am suprised that PW does not know who you are as he spent enough time in your house chatting away till the wee hours. I also used to live opposite you and next door to PW.
Opso as a Man Utd fan I think your remarks are equally bigoted.
However as this is a professional pilots rumour network military forum, I don't give a stuff. Just like this topic, relevance, I don't care for the debate.
I am sure it has a place but not here.
Opso, I am suprised that PW does not know who you are as he spent enough time in your house chatting away till the wee hours. I also used to live opposite you and next door to PW.
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FV
Of course Freemasonry is not the only charitable body I am a member of (indeed I have been trustee of 2 charities - with the nause paperwork that that implies). opso, who I have finally sussed (I hadn't worked out which base) and Mr Ripley may well remember me collecting money door to door for one of those charities that sponsor children in other countries (my wife and I sponsored a child for several years). Both my wife and I have supported a variety of charities by membership, door to door collection, street collection, covenant and active participation. Freemasonry is a general body that supports, directly and indirectly, charities and individuals in times of need. I'm not in Rotary or Round Table (although I have helped at Round Table functions) through choice. There is literally only so much time and money any one of us can give. My firm belief is that everyone should contribute something to the society they belong to. If the citizenship of the UK were to give a couple of hours a week and a small cash amount a week then most of the problems our society faces could probably be cured. I do put my money and my actions where my mouth is, as every one who knows me in person, rather than by rumour, is aware. I do believe that covert charitable actions are as good as overt charity giving.
Mr Ripley, does your wife share a name with a popular salad vegetable? Do you ham it up a lot?
Of course Freemasonry is not the only charitable body I am a member of (indeed I have been trustee of 2 charities - with the nause paperwork that that implies). opso, who I have finally sussed (I hadn't worked out which base) and Mr Ripley may well remember me collecting money door to door for one of those charities that sponsor children in other countries (my wife and I sponsored a child for several years). Both my wife and I have supported a variety of charities by membership, door to door collection, street collection, covenant and active participation. Freemasonry is a general body that supports, directly and indirectly, charities and individuals in times of need. I'm not in Rotary or Round Table (although I have helped at Round Table functions) through choice. There is literally only so much time and money any one of us can give. My firm belief is that everyone should contribute something to the society they belong to. If the citizenship of the UK were to give a couple of hours a week and a small cash amount a week then most of the problems our society faces could probably be cured. I do put my money and my actions where my mouth is, as every one who knows me in person, rather than by rumour, is aware. I do believe that covert charitable actions are as good as overt charity giving.
Mr Ripley, does your wife share a name with a popular salad vegetable? Do you ham it up a lot?
Guest
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I must say I have been following this topic with great interest as it has made chuckle somewhat. I wish I could say that being a mason has enhanced my career, but it hasn't (even writing cryptic comments on my ACR didn’t work!). I wish I could say that being a Rotarian had helped me climb the ladder but it hasn't if anything it has been detrimental. As for the chap who thinks that we become masons to get a job after we leave the mob, exactly which planet is he transmitting from, I joined for several reasons and post service employment certainly wasn’t one of them. As for us masons being secretive why don’t you chaps use your real names on here instead of hiding behind these pseudonyms?
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TM
I love you deeply, as you well know. (OK, maybe I just wish I did!). But.....
Am I going to answer? No. I've explained my position, and he's explained his. On Masons in the Forces I fear that there can be no 'meeting in the middle' cos neither of us will give an inch.
On 'removing' posts. No. I've apologised. I've explained. That ought to be enough. On reflection, however, I'll apologise again for deeply corrupt and say "I meant potentially and sometimes anecdotally corrupt".
There is a Cloucester Old Spot flying past my window at this very minute, so I'm waiting with baited breath for all the apolgies for the unkind words about me and my journalistic professionalism.
I love you deeply, as you well know. (OK, maybe I just wish I did!). But.....
Am I going to answer? No. I've explained my position, and he's explained his. On Masons in the Forces I fear that there can be no 'meeting in the middle' cos neither of us will give an inch.
On 'removing' posts. No. I've apologised. I've explained. That ought to be enough. On reflection, however, I'll apologise again for deeply corrupt and say "I meant potentially and sometimes anecdotally corrupt".
There is a Cloucester Old Spot flying past my window at this very minute, so I'm waiting with baited breath for all the apolgies for the unkind words about me and my journalistic professionalism.