D-Day looms For Skyhawks
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D-Day looms For Skyhawks
And you think you have a problem---? The RNZAF CAS is currently directing all commanders to place "leadership of change" at the top of their priorities in anticipation of a Govt. announcement that its strike capability is to be scrapped. CAS has said, "As your CAS and an airman with some 39 years' service, I cannot ignore the deep disappointment you will feel--.The RNZAF has a professional reputation second to none, and our mission will continue to be --to operate with professionalism and integrity".
That reputation was born from the time of 75 Sqn Wellingtons/Lancaster operating as part of the RAF. The very number 75 was gifted by the RAF (there is no RAF Sqn of that number.) Then operations with the RAF in every theatre post-war.
Politicians, particularly those with false. misleading,ideology driven beliefs really piss me off!
Now where is that bottle of single Malt
Edited as a result of finding not one but two bottles!
[This message has been edited by Samuel (edited 04 May 2001).]
That reputation was born from the time of 75 Sqn Wellingtons/Lancaster operating as part of the RAF. The very number 75 was gifted by the RAF (there is no RAF Sqn of that number.) Then operations with the RAF in every theatre post-war.
Politicians, particularly those with false. misleading,ideology driven beliefs really piss me off!
Now where is that bottle of single Malt
Edited as a result of finding not one but two bottles!
[This message has been edited by Samuel (edited 04 May 2001).]
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The RAF will soon have 24 'spare' Tornado F3s back from the Italian lease. Alternatively, there are at least that many low-houred Jag instructional airframes, each with 2,000 hours gone of their 6,500 hour lives. The latter could be Jag 97s for the cost of a major and about £500k per jet.
Either might be a come-down after an APG-66 equipped A-4M (but I doubt it) or the promise of an F-16C. But surely either would be better than nothing.
Either might be a come-down after an APG-66 equipped A-4M (but I doubt it) or the promise of an F-16C. But surely either would be better than nothing.
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Well, what is there to say? Firstly, secondly and thirdly, I'm appalled by this piece of errant stupidity and wanton vadalism, (and, dare I say it historical desecration). What will this mean for the "closer defence realtionship" with Australia? A Herc or an Orion (whatever their other capabilities) is not much use as a missile simulator in support of the RAN!
(As an aside, I believe that 75 Sqn was transferred to the RNZAF immediately after the Great War, not WWII.)
However, Jacko is quite right. Surplus Jag (Tonkas presumably too expensive) upgraded to '97 (GR3A) standard would provide a credible ground attack and recce capibility for c. 15-20 years that is deployable (in support of UN ops), is PGM capable (politically restrictive RoE), and is reasonably cheap. Sounds like a perfect solution (and therefore extremely improbable.)
Appalling! My best wishes to the Air Attack Force.
Tobbes
(As an aside, I believe that 75 Sqn was transferred to the RNZAF immediately after the Great War, not WWII.)
However, Jacko is quite right. Surplus Jag (Tonkas presumably too expensive) upgraded to '97 (GR3A) standard would provide a credible ground attack and recce capibility for c. 15-20 years that is deployable (in support of UN ops), is PGM capable (politically restrictive RoE), and is reasonably cheap. Sounds like a perfect solution (and therefore extremely improbable.)
Appalling! My best wishes to the Air Attack Force.
Tobbes
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75 Sqn was RAF up to April 1940 (Anson then Wellington). The RAF sqn disbanded on 8 April 40; The New Zealand Wellington Flight at Feltwell was reformed as 75 (New Zealand)Sqn on same day. Sqn was disbanded on 15 Oct 45 and the sqn number formally transferred to the RNZAF.
During the war 75 Sqn was equipped with Wellingtons, Stirlings and Lancasters.
RAIDS FLOWN:
Wellington: 291 bombing; 24 mine laying; 4 leaflet; 1 photo recce.
Stirlings: 103 bombing; 107 mine laying.
Lancaster; 190 bombing; 18 mine laying; 1 leaflet.
SORTIES & LOSSES:
Wellington: 2,540. 75 ac lost (2.9%)
Stirling: 1,736. 72 ac lost (4.1%)
Lancaster: 3,741. 47 ac lost (1.3%)
Victoria Cross: Sgt J A Ward, 7/8 July 41, Munster. Later KIA on raid on Hamburg 15/16 Sept 41.
Carried out fourth highest number of bombing raids in Bomber Command heavy Sqns.
Flew most sorties in 3 Group and in the whole of Bomber Command.
Suffered the second highest casualties in Bomber Command.
Believed to have dropped the third greatest tonnage of bombs in Bomber Command (approx 21,600 tons) and second highest total of mines (2,344).
[This message has been edited by ORAC (edited 04 May 2001).]
During the war 75 Sqn was equipped with Wellingtons, Stirlings and Lancasters.
RAIDS FLOWN:
Wellington: 291 bombing; 24 mine laying; 4 leaflet; 1 photo recce.
Stirlings: 103 bombing; 107 mine laying.
Lancaster; 190 bombing; 18 mine laying; 1 leaflet.
SORTIES & LOSSES:
Wellington: 2,540. 75 ac lost (2.9%)
Stirling: 1,736. 72 ac lost (4.1%)
Lancaster: 3,741. 47 ac lost (1.3%)
Victoria Cross: Sgt J A Ward, 7/8 July 41, Munster. Later KIA on raid on Hamburg 15/16 Sept 41.
Carried out fourth highest number of bombing raids in Bomber Command heavy Sqns.
Flew most sorties in 3 Group and in the whole of Bomber Command.
Suffered the second highest casualties in Bomber Command.
Believed to have dropped the third greatest tonnage of bombs in Bomber Command (approx 21,600 tons) and second highest total of mines (2,344).
[This message has been edited by ORAC (edited 04 May 2001).]
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There , will be NO replacement, Jag or otherwise. The treehuggers, are dismantling the whole strike infrastructure, against the advise of five former Chiefs of Defence Staff and two former Defence Secretaries, all of whose views were dismissed out of hand.
My bet is the Maachi 339 will be next if she survives the next election. There are dangers to the whole technical trade infrastructure of course, not to mention Air New Zealand' prime source of pilots!
75 (NZ) Sqn was formed in England as a result of an RNZAF collection of 30 Wellingtons, which at the outbreak of war, were promptly offered to a grateful UK along with the crews.They thus became 75 (NZ.)Though there was an air force before WW2, it did not become the RNZAF until 1934., with very close links to the RAF of course.
My bet is the Maachi 339 will be next if she survives the next election. There are dangers to the whole technical trade infrastructure of course, not to mention Air New Zealand' prime source of pilots!
75 (NZ) Sqn was formed in England as a result of an RNZAF collection of 30 Wellingtons, which at the outbreak of war, were promptly offered to a grateful UK along with the crews.They thus became 75 (NZ.)Though there was an air force before WW2, it did not become the RNZAF until 1934., with very close links to the RAF of course.
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Tobbes,
The actual a/c flown are not the issue here. What the NZ Govt has done is to make a decision that the nation does not need the capability at all, in any shape or form.
With no A-4 force there will be no need for the MB339 fleet, you can guarantee that they will be next to go. With the P-3 fleet losing it's ASW role and fit, and consideration being given to having a contractor take over and operate the fleet in an environmental partol capacity, where does this leave the RNZAF?
Even the Seasprite fleet is at risk as the RNZN faces losing it's frigate force.
Even at it's most extreme periods in power in the 70's the loony-left element in the Labour party here never proposed such drastic reductions in a nations defence capability.
Sad to see, it flies in the face of what every other nation on the pacific rim is doing and is comfirmation that the labour party in NZ is about as in touch with the real world as the Conservative party is here in the UK!
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If the suit fits.........
The actual a/c flown are not the issue here. What the NZ Govt has done is to make a decision that the nation does not need the capability at all, in any shape or form.
With no A-4 force there will be no need for the MB339 fleet, you can guarantee that they will be next to go. With the P-3 fleet losing it's ASW role and fit, and consideration being given to having a contractor take over and operate the fleet in an environmental partol capacity, where does this leave the RNZAF?
Even the Seasprite fleet is at risk as the RNZN faces losing it's frigate force.
Even at it's most extreme periods in power in the 70's the loony-left element in the Labour party here never proposed such drastic reductions in a nations defence capability.
Sad to see, it flies in the face of what every other nation on the pacific rim is doing and is comfirmation that the labour party in NZ is about as in touch with the real world as the Conservative party is here in the UK!
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If the suit fits.........
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You're remarkably well-informed Suit! It was Labour of course which dismantled ANZUS by banning US ships from NZ ports unless they were nuclear free and said so, which of course they wouldn't.That cost the RNZAF in a way, because NZ ceased to be an ally, and had to buy spares from Lockheed instead of the USAF/USN, So the cost of operations spiralled upwards.
Looney left is absolutely on the nose.
Looney left is absolutely on the nose.
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The chances of NZ sorting itself out is currently quite remote, since their voting system is now so peculiar that it has allowed all sorts of minor parties a voice, and none of them are likely to allow a change back to a more representative voting system, since they would then effectively vote themselves out of power.
The whole system there is collapsing rapidly, not just defence, but all social services as well. Health is as bad as you can get. My father in law had to wait 18 months for a scan, having been diagnosed for a "pinched nerve" in his back. Tumour on the spine, not much hope. So much for the NZ health system, and if a Labour government can't get that to even partially work, there's no hope for the military.
The whole system there is collapsing rapidly, not just defence, but all social services as well. Health is as bad as you can get. My father in law had to wait 18 months for a scan, having been diagnosed for a "pinched nerve" in his back. Tumour on the spine, not much hope. So much for the NZ health system, and if a Labour government can't get that to even partially work, there's no hope for the military.
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Gentlemen,
As an expat Kiwi who spent a number of years OHMS in the NZ Army I feel acutely for the RNZAFs pain.
But, if we see the big picture, if NZ can't afford health care or a decent education system, why thwn should defence be a sacred cow?
Sadly NZ never got the bombing in WW2 that it would have needed to develop a mature idea of regional defence requirements.
Remember all you NZ servicemen and women, you are there to do the biding of the government, and sometimes (Gallipoli, Sommme, Greece, Crete, et al) they f&*k it up.
You're not dead, so get up and get on.
Beers on me next time I meet a Kiwi in sdervice of the country.
As an expat Kiwi who spent a number of years OHMS in the NZ Army I feel acutely for the RNZAFs pain.
But, if we see the big picture, if NZ can't afford health care or a decent education system, why thwn should defence be a sacred cow?
Sadly NZ never got the bombing in WW2 that it would have needed to develop a mature idea of regional defence requirements.
Remember all you NZ servicemen and women, you are there to do the biding of the government, and sometimes (Gallipoli, Sommme, Greece, Crete, et al) they f&*k it up.
You're not dead, so get up and get on.
Beers on me next time I meet a Kiwi in sdervice of the country.
Guest
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I was involved with your P3 upgrade program people so they could take our experience and learn from it. Their plans were not over ambitious or expensive but a capability lost will never be recovered and I feel it will be lost.
Happily there is no threat to Kiwi for now, come to think there is little threat to anyone in the developed world.
Until some political arse creates one and then they will call on those left to rush to defend their morals especially in an election year.
We will lose lives to save money for our masters and do. I would not encourage the US way of welcoming heroes? back from a bump with a fighter. But we currently have a generation untouched by war and hardship and thus life is cheap and respect is low for those that secure and have secured their future.
Ill raise a glass to the demise of the RNZAF just dont give me any of that purple sh*t!
Happily there is no threat to Kiwi for now, come to think there is little threat to anyone in the developed world.
Until some political arse creates one and then they will call on those left to rush to defend their morals especially in an election year.
We will lose lives to save money for our masters and do. I would not encourage the US way of welcoming heroes? back from a bump with a fighter. But we currently have a generation untouched by war and hardship and thus life is cheap and respect is low for those that secure and have secured their future.
Ill raise a glass to the demise of the RNZAF just dont give me any of that purple sh*t!
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This is straying off the subject a little, but who, other than an expat and an Ocker who presumably lives inside the black stump, can justify such outrageous statements?
Monash University (Australian for those that may not have heard of it) has publicly stated that NZ'ers are generally better equipped educationally. Presumably all those well-educated immigrants from South Africa, the UK, and yes, even the US, see something you don't! And our cows are sane!
And pray tell what the hell not having been bombed has got to do with a defence attitude? The US has never been bombed either! NZ has always pulled its weight, and in fact has fought in every British war (and one American) since the South African War. Including the Gulf. We simply love other peoples wars. And yes, Gallipoli, Somme, Greece, Crete etc. were all British cock-ups.NZ (and Australia) simply provided the bodies. The RAF accepted NZ'ers in huge numbers, more per capita than any other Commonwealth country in fact.They did very well too! The BoB was led by Kiwi,(Park) as was the Desert Air Force, (Conningham) Two of the top ten RAF aces were Kiwis. There has been at least one post-war CAS RAF, and at least one CDS (Elworthy.)AVM Sir Kenneth Hayr RAF, of Gulf War involvement is a Kiwi ( and still flying his Nanchang (or is it a Yak?) for those contempories!).
Remember that Defence in a Westminster system of democracy is a tool of government. Have a go at the politicians by all means, but leave the troops alone! And keep to the thread!
[This message has been edited by Samuel (edited 06 May 2001).]
Monash University (Australian for those that may not have heard of it) has publicly stated that NZ'ers are generally better equipped educationally. Presumably all those well-educated immigrants from South Africa, the UK, and yes, even the US, see something you don't! And our cows are sane!
And pray tell what the hell not having been bombed has got to do with a defence attitude? The US has never been bombed either! NZ has always pulled its weight, and in fact has fought in every British war (and one American) since the South African War. Including the Gulf. We simply love other peoples wars. And yes, Gallipoli, Somme, Greece, Crete etc. were all British cock-ups.NZ (and Australia) simply provided the bodies. The RAF accepted NZ'ers in huge numbers, more per capita than any other Commonwealth country in fact.They did very well too! The BoB was led by Kiwi,(Park) as was the Desert Air Force, (Conningham) Two of the top ten RAF aces were Kiwis. There has been at least one post-war CAS RAF, and at least one CDS (Elworthy.)AVM Sir Kenneth Hayr RAF, of Gulf War involvement is a Kiwi ( and still flying his Nanchang (or is it a Yak?) for those contempories!).
Remember that Defence in a Westminster system of democracy is a tool of government. Have a go at the politicians by all means, but leave the troops alone! And keep to the thread!
[This message has been edited by Samuel (edited 06 May 2001).]
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Samuel,
Is that spleen vented at me or someone else?
email me if I have been misunderstood, for in NO way do I seek to diminish the efforts of NZ in the world .... merely pointing out that the NZ economy and society may not necessarily be able to afford to support the system that brought us the first female suffrage, atom split, social welfare system, free education, labour relations act the world ever saw.
I love my country, I will always ove it ... even when it is driven to obscurity by politicians and bean counters
Ake Ake Kia Kaha
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Park it, tie it down, lock it, lets go to the pub!!!!!
Is that spleen vented at me or someone else?
email me if I have been misunderstood, for in NO way do I seek to diminish the efforts of NZ in the world .... merely pointing out that the NZ economy and society may not necessarily be able to afford to support the system that brought us the first female suffrage, atom split, social welfare system, free education, labour relations act the world ever saw.
I love my country, I will always ove it ... even when it is driven to obscurity by politicians and bean counters
Ake Ake Kia Kaha
------------------
Park it, tie it down, lock it, lets go to the pub!!!!!
Guest
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Quite right Chinook! My sincere apologies! I was simply expressing my frustration having just seen that bloody woman on TV yet again espousing her ideology based argument for destroying a hugely important infrastructure.
It now appears that new Blackhawks are on the shopping list, as well as an AS 330, which will presumably spend a lot of time carting bloody politicians around! And the Herks are to be upgraded rather than replaced with the J, which might come as a relief to some given the problems!
It now appears that new Blackhawks are on the shopping list, as well as an AS 330, which will presumably spend a lot of time carting bloody politicians around! And the Herks are to be upgraded rather than replaced with the J, which might come as a relief to some given the problems!
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If, like me, you would still like to see at least one A4 in the skies over NZ then check out
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/For...ML/005449.html
...and/or email [email protected]
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/For...ML/005449.html
...and/or email [email protected]
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If you want a real laugh....disbanding the A4 and Macchi Sqns will leave the RNZAF a grand total of 33 acft on the inventory! (Assuming the Bell 47, yes we still fly them, counts)
You have to wonder at an Airstaff with 1 AVM, 4 AIRCDREs and 16 GPCAPTs.....nearly an aeroplane each.
'Tis the thin end of the wedge me thinks. Time to go.......
On that note if anyone has the appropriate email address for the RAF and RAAF appointer we have a dozen QFIs and QWIs looking for work...not to mention the young lads (and lady) who are mad keen to ply their trade somewhere where they maybe appreciated.
So long......
You have to wonder at an Airstaff with 1 AVM, 4 AIRCDREs and 16 GPCAPTs.....nearly an aeroplane each.
'Tis the thin end of the wedge me thinks. Time to go.......
On that note if anyone has the appropriate email address for the RAF and RAAF appointer we have a dozen QFIs and QWIs looking for work...not to mention the young lads (and lady) who are mad keen to ply their trade somewhere where they maybe appreciated.
So long......