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"Sort out the Navy!" - Lord West

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"Sort out the Navy!" - Lord West

Old 20th Mar 2012, 15:11
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"Sort out the Navy!" - Lord West

Lord West, the former First Sea Lord and a Falklands veteran, suggests it is "bonkers" that the Royal Navy has only 19 frigates and destroyers.
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Old 20th Mar 2012, 15:35
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A Pathe film clip from the time when Britain had a Navy
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Old 20th Mar 2012, 15:44
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Yawn - off we go again...

When will retired senior officers stop spouting off? It's no different to retired airships bemoaning a lack of FJ Sqns or Generals getting dewy-eyed at scrapped regiments and the number of tubes and tanks...let alone parachuting.

These "experts" were at the vanguard of a generation that always wanted the next bigger, better, faster, shinier toy but didn't (ever) have the money to pay for them and now seem astounded that they can't have the high-tech toys in the same number as the old toys they replace. If a Typhoon is 10 times better than an F3 then you need substantially less, the same with T45 v T42. You can't have it both ways. If these officers had decided on a proportion of the forces being "low tech, low cost, high numbers" for peacetime Ops and a bit of concurrency, then we'd still have flotillas of ships, stations full of aircraft and parade grounds full of tanks. They didn't. They acquiesced to a defence policy built around maintaining BAES and buying their products to protect Britain PLC. If they didn't like it they should have had the guts to resign whilst serving rather than carp at their successors from the 300 a day pension-boosting House of Lords.

Oh, that's become a rant....sorry...
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Old 20th Mar 2012, 15:50
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Ricardian - its too painful to watch!
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Old 20th Mar 2012, 15:54
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The money would be there if it wasn't being piled on the sick, lame and lazy that multiply exponentially.
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Old 20th Mar 2012, 16:14
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I spy a Daily Mail reader.

Sick, lame and lazy have little to do with the fact that successive governments and their senior officer lackies have repeatedly thrown one of the largest defence budgets in the world up the wall or into the pockets of BAe for this season's must have untried and untested must have toys.
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Old 20th Mar 2012, 16:29
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@Evalu8ter : I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head...And as some guy said : At this pace, in 50 years' time, we will have a one aircraft Air Force and a one ship Navy, but it's going to be a f***ing aircraft and f****ing ship!!!
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Old 20th Mar 2012, 16:42
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Helpful:

Go take a look at what is spent on benefits, pensions, health etc.

Then take a look at the pitiful amount spent on protecting those entitlements.

Nothing to do with the Daily Mail. I'll agree that the budgets have been utterly misspent but when you spend almost three times as much on welfare than you do on defending the country there isn't much in the budgets in the first place.

Linky
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Old 20th Mar 2012, 16:47
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Cue the I'm the last one in the Air Force... and 'last one left switch the lights out' posters...it's irresistible, like moths to the light - watch.
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Old 20th Mar 2012, 17:02
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Sick, lame and lazy have little to do with the fact that successive governments and their senior officer lackies have repeatedly thrown one of the largest defence budgets in the world up the wall or into the pockets of BAe for this season's must have untried and untested must have toys.

The real problem is that MOD as an entity no longer has even a rudimentary ability to understand what things "should" cost and therefore no ability to argue the toss on a credible basis with the contractors (and it ain't just BAES, although they are the most direct manifestation).

Instead, MoD employ a whole host of consultancy companies to "help" them with understanding cost. Trouble is that many of these consultancies are no more informed than MoD about the technical and engineering elements of these projects and end up falling back on ill-defined "risk" fudge factors and complicated "models" that end up obscuring the real elements of interest, bloating the budget and because the budget is rarely kept under discretion, usually end up as the "price" - a self-fulfilling prophecy.

That's not in any way to suggest that all contractors are sharks - far from it. The process needs to work both ways, but I'm afraid that ignorance and a bloated approvals system militate against common sense ever breaking out.
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Old 20th Mar 2012, 17:37
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Evalu8tor

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Old 20th Mar 2012, 17:53
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Go take a look at what is spent on benefits, pensions, health etc.
Whilst the benefit system is a concern what is the issue with money being spent on pensions and health?
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Old 20th Mar 2012, 18:02
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Evalu8tor



Seconded!
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Old 20th Mar 2012, 18:08
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Whilst the benefit system is a concern what is the issue with money being spent
on pensions and health?
It does not serve as a deterrent to would-be adversaries. Watch Argentina!

Seemples.

Evalu8tor,

Thirded!

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Old 20th Mar 2012, 18:16
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It does not serve as a deterrent to would-be adversaries. Watch Argentina!
What a bizarre argument. If its purely about numbers then the surface fleet was far larger back in 1982 and that didn't seem to act as a deterrent either.

Of course speaking in the present rather than looking back with misty eyes at a world that was, just how much of an actual military threat is Argentina these days to an apparently improverished (no thanks to all them im-er-grants and dole scroungers eh?) UK military?
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Old 20th Mar 2012, 18:29
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Whilst the benefit system is a concern what is the issue with money being spent on pensions and health?
Where do I start? I'll keep it simple. The NHS is a disaster of biblical proportions with money wasted left and right. I have nothing against reasonable pensions. But, alas, not all are so "reasonable"...
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Old 20th Mar 2012, 18:38
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Yeah, the NHS is a disaster. Universial, free at point of use healthcare for less than per person than the USA pays per person (though it doesn't mean those people get healthcare, just that they pay for it) to prop up a non-universal, not-free at point of use healthcare system.

Who have the 'unreasonable' pensions btw?
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Old 20th Mar 2012, 20:01
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Airborne Aircrew

Really hope you never get sick or made redundant............
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Old 20th Mar 2012, 20:11
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Whilst admiring the sheer size, firepower and presence of the Royal Navy in that Royal Review, does anyone else agree with me that the FAA was seen to be somewhat lacking in formation flying skills?
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Old 20th Mar 2012, 20:49
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Really hope you never get sick or made redundant............
And I wish the same for you...

Because you'd expect me to pay for you.

I have no problem helping. But I resent institutionalized theft that only really benefits those seeking power.
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