How many more lives?
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How many more lives?
A famous quote from Vietnam goes along the lines of, How do you ask someone to die last in Vietnam, how do ask the last person to die for a mistake?
It's a very good point and one we should be asking now about Afghanistan.
Honestly, are our politicians past and present going to be able to look into the families eyes and say their sons and daughters sacrifice was worth it?
The brave survivors of this mess will have to live with the horrors they witnessed, lost friends, injured children, constant fear of ied etc.
The horrors of war are nothing new and loss is devastating whatever the circumstances but, this war like Vietnam is pointless and unwinnable.
Does anyone really know our real objectives? are we achieving them? And in ten years time will we look back and think what a shameful waste of life?
It's a very good point and one we should be asking now about Afghanistan.
Honestly, are our politicians past and present going to be able to look into the families eyes and say their sons and daughters sacrifice was worth it?
The brave survivors of this mess will have to live with the horrors they witnessed, lost friends, injured children, constant fear of ied etc.
The horrors of war are nothing new and loss is devastating whatever the circumstances but, this war like Vietnam is pointless and unwinnable.
Does anyone really know our real objectives? are we achieving them? And in ten years time will we look back and think what a shameful waste of life?
I for one have seen the removal or incarceration of several individuals that I woul not want to see walk on God's/Allah's Earth; and certainly not near me, my family or friends in the peacetime world we share. Furthermore, I have seen women and children be able to get an education in AFG these days- despite some nutter trying to stop it by throwing battery acid over young girls on the way to school. I have met members of the Afghan National Security Forces (ANSF) who are eternally grateful for our intervention and sacrifices. I have also seen tons and tons of explosives, mines and narcotics destroyed in an attempt to clean up what should be a beautiful country blighted by many years of corruption and war.
So in answer to your last questions, Jayand, "yes, yes and no"
iRaven
So in answer to your last questions, Jayand, "yes, yes and no"
iRaven
We went there in the nineteenth century and got whupped.
The Russians went there in the twentieth century and got whupped.
We're there in the twenty first century and getting whupped.
What is it about this bloody country Afghanistan?
The Russians went there in the twentieth century and got whupped.
We're there in the twenty first century and getting whupped.
What is it about this bloody country Afghanistan?
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Good afternoon IRaven,
There are any number of people whose behaviour is objectionable but are you seriously suggesting that when both the Americans and our troops pull out, the present regime will remain in power, the schools will remain open for both boys and girls?
Do you genuinely believe we are not already negotiating with the Taliban who were the very people we decided were not a fit people to govern Afghanistan?
There are any number of people whose behaviour is objectionable but are you seriously suggesting that when both the Americans and our troops pull out, the present regime will remain in power, the schools will remain open for both boys and girls?
Do you genuinely believe we are not already negotiating with the Taliban who were the very people we decided were not a fit people to govern Afghanistan?
We went there to find & kill Osama. He's gone - he was killed in Pakistan. Go figure.
Right - that's it - we've been there too long, achieved nothing that will either will be eroded in the few weeks after we leave - or 'they' can hold onto now and forever more.
There is no need or use for us being there anymore & it is not worth one more life.
Right - that's it - we've been there too long, achieved nothing that will either will be eroded in the few weeks after we leave - or 'they' can hold onto now and forever more.
There is no need or use for us being there anymore & it is not worth one more life.
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Al-Qaeda may have helped to trade in its ailing leader for the $25m reward
Load Toad,
An interesting article reference Osama bin Laden in todays Sunday Times: -
To precis -
Al-Qaeda was seeking the $25m (Ł16m) bounty on his head and Bin Laden understood what was happening but had lost the will to live. Bin Laden had been ousted as leader “in a silent, bloodless coup” in 2003 and may have been suffering from some degenerative disease, in which he was losing his mental capacities and his physical abilities.
Al-Qaeda was broke and its motive in betraying Bin Laden was to get hold of the $25m the US had put on his head. “The supreme irony is that, if the money has been paid, then the CIA has paid to bring Al-Qaeda back to life and has [killed] somebody who was totally irrelevant to Al-Qaeda and who was dying anyway.”
--------------------------------------------------------
Some of the above is directly quoted from the Sunday Times (Sunday11 March 2012).
An interesting article reference Osama bin Laden in todays Sunday Times: -
To precis -
Al-Qaeda was seeking the $25m (Ł16m) bounty on his head and Bin Laden understood what was happening but had lost the will to live. Bin Laden had been ousted as leader “in a silent, bloodless coup” in 2003 and may have been suffering from some degenerative disease, in which he was losing his mental capacities and his physical abilities.
Al-Qaeda was broke and its motive in betraying Bin Laden was to get hold of the $25m the US had put on his head. “The supreme irony is that, if the money has been paid, then the CIA has paid to bring Al-Qaeda back to life and has [killed] somebody who was totally irrelevant to Al-Qaeda and who was dying anyway.”
--------------------------------------------------------
Some of the above is directly quoted from the Sunday Times (Sunday11 March 2012).
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I would be very interested to hear a soldier's view on this. My time in theatre involves kinetics but from an air conditioned cockpit; nerve wracking and fraught but well removed from the sights and sounds of mortal combat.
We have seen the USMC urination incident, the NATO Koran burning incident and now the US Army mass murder incident.
I was always of the opinion that the progress made would be incremental and very fragile. A year's or decade's good work and incredible sacrifice could be undone by a nano-second's action.
If a soldier was to tell me that the three above events are unavoidable and someone will always let the side down due to the very nature of what we are asking of them - then we are lost and cannot win. If a soldier was to tell me that these horrendous incidents are not undoing their amazing work on the ground then I shall keep the faith.
We have seen the USMC urination incident, the NATO Koran burning incident and now the US Army mass murder incident.
I was always of the opinion that the progress made would be incremental and very fragile. A year's or decade's good work and incredible sacrifice could be undone by a nano-second's action.
If a soldier was to tell me that the three above events are unavoidable and someone will always let the side down due to the very nature of what we are asking of them - then we are lost and cannot win. If a soldier was to tell me that these horrendous incidents are not undoing their amazing work on the ground then I shall keep the faith.
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Orca,
Unfortunately humans can be unpredictable at an individual level. Unpredictable humans in an unpredictable environment will always lead to unpredictable events.
Unfortunately humans can be unpredictable at an individual level. Unpredictable humans in an unpredictable environment will always lead to unpredictable events.
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Orca,
Unfortunately humans can be unpredictable at an individual level. Unpredictable humans in an unpredictable environment will always lead to unpredictable events.
Unfortunately humans can be unpredictable at an individual level. Unpredictable humans in an unpredictable environment will always lead to unpredictable events.
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Shack37,
Whilst the incident is extremely regrettable one has to ask what drove this soldier to do what he did. The person involved is apparently a a Staff Sergeant and a member of the U.S. special operations forces who had been involved in training the Afghan police.
I would love to see the atrocities that are perpetrated by the Taliban raised and written about in a similar manner. They aren't. They are rarely ever mentioned; yet the Taliban carry out many, many more atrocities than do the Western forces.
I do not wish to give the impression that the atrocity carried out by the American soldier is acceptable, but I do wish that there was an unbiased view presented.
Whilst the incident is extremely regrettable one has to ask what drove this soldier to do what he did. The person involved is apparently a a Staff Sergeant and a member of the U.S. special operations forces who had been involved in training the Afghan police.
I would love to see the atrocities that are perpetrated by the Taliban raised and written about in a similar manner. They aren't. They are rarely ever mentioned; yet the Taliban carry out many, many more atrocities than do the Western forces.
I do not wish to give the impression that the atrocity carried out by the American soldier is acceptable, but I do wish that there was an unbiased view presented.
Last edited by hval; 11th Mar 2012 at 17:36. Reason: Addition of details of perpetrator
Invading another country you always need an exit strategy.............in 2001 there was not one for Afganistan, in 2012 there still isn't one.
11 years, countless deaths and debts and achievement not much further than 2001.
Easier to have overthrown from within but US of A needed a war after 9/11 to feel like it was doing something.
11 years, countless deaths and debts and achievement not much further than 2001.
Easier to have overthrown from within but US of A needed a war after 9/11 to feel like it was doing something.
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racedo,
The West succeded in their original intention of ridding Afghanistan of Al Qaeda.
Easier to have overthrown from within but US of A needed a war after 9/11 to feel like it was doing something.
I'm not a soldier, but you don't need to be to go outside the wire as an airman! I've been to Edinburgh, Dwyer, Price, Nad-e Ali, KAF, Graceland, Lash, Kabul and Bastion. I've seen the atrocities commited by the Taliban first hand - as I mentioned battery acid in the faces of young girls no older than my daughters, unable to get to water to wash it off and now scarred for life. I've seen them murder and maim local populace that we have patched up in our field hospitals having got caught in the middle of the fighting.
I would say we have been successful, measuring success in COIN and anti-terrorism is a bit like measuring the success of Flight Safety - you only really know if it would have been successful with hindsight! However, we're hardly being overun with Islamic terrorism at home are we? Is that the measure of success?
I have lost many good mates from jaunts to the Middle East and whilst I miss them very much, I would not, or I doubt they would, have changed my/their level of participation one bit. So I ask you to respect this when you claim that our efforts and sacrifices are a 'waste' - I find some of the above totally disrespectful.
iRaven
I would say we have been successful, measuring success in COIN and anti-terrorism is a bit like measuring the success of Flight Safety - you only really know if it would have been successful with hindsight! However, we're hardly being overun with Islamic terrorism at home are we? Is that the measure of success?
I have lost many good mates from jaunts to the Middle East and whilst I miss them very much, I would not, or I doubt they would, have changed my/their level of participation one bit. So I ask you to respect this when you claim that our efforts and sacrifices are a 'waste' - I find some of the above totally disrespectful.
iRaven
PS Racedo - 2001 was mostly an air campaign and some 'special' ground work - the current ground campaign started 4-5 years later, so I make that 5 years of the main Afghan campaign.
PPS The ANSF can hold their own soon and with a minor compromise with the Taliban, I believe that a lasting solution will be enacted.
PPS The ANSF can hold their own soon and with a minor compromise with the Taliban, I believe that a lasting solution will be enacted.
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Fareastdriver,
I would disagree (if I may) with your conclusion. Vietnam was always going to be a lost war for the USA. The involvement of the media and "luvvies" only accelerated the process.
I would disagree (if I may) with your conclusion. Vietnam was always going to be a lost war for the USA. The involvement of the media and "luvvies" only accelerated the process.
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I am one of those who has argued for years that we have lost the Afghan war; that even if we stay for another ten or twenty years, we would change nothing in that corrupt medieval society.
I’m tired of the crocodile tears of politicians and politically-leaning senior officers In the wake of Tuesday night’s losses,trotting out the usual platitudes things like: ‘We must stay and finish the job.’
To which I say, complete and utter bollocks.! There is no way this century that that war can be won, and Blind Freddy himself can see that all that will happen is that more lives will be lost in a futile military excursion. Bugger 2014, someone find the guts to declare the war over and get those people home NOW.
I recall in the 60s the mass protest in the US over the Vietnam war, and the eventual conclusion by the US Government that they had been wrong to go there and wrong to stay. Perhaps a few protests in the UK on the same scale is what is required.
I’m tired of the crocodile tears of politicians and politically-leaning senior officers In the wake of Tuesday night’s losses,trotting out the usual platitudes things like: ‘We must stay and finish the job.’
To which I say, complete and utter bollocks.! There is no way this century that that war can be won, and Blind Freddy himself can see that all that will happen is that more lives will be lost in a futile military excursion. Bugger 2014, someone find the guts to declare the war over and get those people home NOW.
I recall in the 60s the mass protest in the US over the Vietnam war, and the eventual conclusion by the US Government that they had been wrong to go there and wrong to stay. Perhaps a few protests in the UK on the same scale is what is required.