How many more lives?
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Samuel,
Those involved are being brought home NOW. Unfortunately NOW takes a year or two to plan for. The war (was it/ is it a war?) is not over and will not be over, even when every western troop is removed from Afghanistan. War shall continue, as it it has done for hundreds of years, even without us.
Deliberate destabilisation from Pakistan, from Iran and from other interested nations does not help matters. Their interference will continue whether we are there or not.
There have been many demonstrations in the UK against war in Afghanistan.
someone find the guts to declare the war over and get those people home NOW.
Deliberate destabilisation from Pakistan, from Iran and from other interested nations does not help matters. Their interference will continue whether we are there or not.
There have been many demonstrations in the UK against war in Afghanistan.
Last edited by hval; 11th Mar 2012 at 18:56. Reason: Whoops! Missed bits out.
"War" or "Counter Insurgency (COIN) Campaign" - I tend to believe it is a COIN Campaign, which has totally different Aims and Objectives (which aligns with I believe we are doing in Afghanistan) than War.
From the British Army website it says:
Doesn't sound like a war to me...
LJ
PS. The "war on terrorism" isn't a real war either!
From the British Army website it says:
UK Forces here are made up of personnel from the Navy, Army and Royal Air Force. The majority of this force is deployed to Helmand province in the south.
In addition, the UK has troops deployed in Kandahar and Afghanistan's capital Kabul.
UK Forces are working in a joint military-civilian plan to push back the Taliban. When we go into the villages and districts in Helmand we are supported by Afghan Army and Afghan Police who hold the ground we have cleared, to prevent the Taliban returning.
Our civilian stabilisation experts work with local officials and tribal elders to follow up security with plans for new roads, clean water and basic justice.
In addition, the UK has troops deployed in Kandahar and Afghanistan's capital Kabul.
UK Forces are working in a joint military-civilian plan to push back the Taliban. When we go into the villages and districts in Helmand we are supported by Afghan Army and Afghan Police who hold the ground we have cleared, to prevent the Taliban returning.
Our civilian stabilisation experts work with local officials and tribal elders to follow up security with plans for new roads, clean water and basic justice.
LJ
PS. The "war on terrorism" isn't a real war either!
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When will we learn
I have been in since 1980 seen many conflicts, all politics and too many deaths just so the those in parliament can justify their jobs, time for me to leave.
PPS The ANSF can hold their own soon and with a minor compromise with the Taliban, I believe that a lasting solution will be enacted.
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H1:
The writing has been on the wall since the Russians failed after ten years of trying, but the problem is those wanting to "finish the job" can't see that wall because they've got their backs to it!
Before the last troops leave Afghanistan, even before they leave because the insurgent elements are already there and always have been, Karzai and his cronies will have skipped the country to live off the millions they have stolen, and the Taliban will simply carry on where they left off.
That's not failed optimism, pessimism or whatever on my part, it's realism. This war, if that's what it is, is un-winnable and never was, and I would suggest that the military hierarchy are very much aware of that fact.
The writing has been on the wall since the Russians failed after ten years of trying, but the problem is those wanting to "finish the job" can't see that wall because they've got their backs to it!
Before the last troops leave Afghanistan, even before they leave because the insurgent elements are already there and always have been, Karzai and his cronies will have skipped the country to live off the millions they have stolen, and the Taliban will simply carry on where they left off.
That's not failed optimism, pessimism or whatever on my part, it's realism. This war, if that's what it is, is un-winnable and never was, and I would suggest that the military hierarchy are very much aware of that fact.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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The West succeeded in their original intention of ridding Afghanistan of Al Qaeda.
Additional to the above the civilian population have had the advantage of ten years of seeing what life without the Taliban could be like and may just be prepared to fight for it. When the allies do eventually pull out the insurgent element of the Taliban will no longer have a cause, they are there now simply to confront the West.
The invasion of Afghanistan has given ten years of relative peace and saved an unknown number of lives by preventing the proliferation of Al Qaeda style terrorism on a world wide basis.
What so many here are choosing to totally ignore is the fact that by being in Afghanistan Al Qaeda has been prevented from using it as a base for their campaign of world wide terrorism, how many lives has that saved? Try to imagine the kind of organisation they could have developed, aided and abetted by the Taliban, if the allies had not gone into Afghanistan.
Mind you Collin Powell was happily providing aid to Taliban for getting rid of drug production..........
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How many more lives
I have been in since 1980 seen many conflicts, all politics and too many deaths just so the those in parliament can justify their jobs, time for me to leave
PRO NCA - I am interested in your analysis of the evidence to suport your assertion that there have been 'too many deaths just so those in parliament can justify their jobs'. From a non-emotional perspective, what does that mean?
PRO NCA - I am interested in your analysis of the evidence to suport your assertion that there have been 'too many deaths just so those in parliament can justify their jobs'. From a non-emotional perspective, what does that mean?
PRO NCA - I am interested in your analysis of the evidence to suport your assertion that there have been 'too many deaths just so those in parliament can justify their jobs'. From a non-emotional perspective, what does that mean?
CG
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"War" or "Counter Insurgency (COIN) Campaign" - I tend to believe it is a COIN Campaign, which has totally different Aims and Objectives (which aligns with I believe we are doing in Afghanistan) than War.
I understand what you are saying and I understand what Counter Insurgency is but......
(Polite questions)) Did we, or did we not actually invade Afghanistan? Did we or did we not remove the legal government of that sovereign state? .
There is a saying that when you 'win' a country you are responsible for the security of its people. I personally find the Taliban regime an abhorrent way of life and alien to everything I believe in, but where does this end. Name half a dozen countries with a worse regime and I will match it.
What people forget when they list the evil atrocities committed by the residents of Afghanistan against our troops is that we are an occupying force. Whether we agree with this or not it is a fact, we are being attacked by residents of a country that do not want us on their soil. it is a ruse to call these people Al Qaeda, Taliban, insurgents, or any other fancy, fashionable names, they are citizens of a country we are occupying and theyobject to our presence!
Their idea of 'payback' to avenge what they feel are the innocent slaughtering of their kith and kin is DEFINITELY repulsive,
but the instant we step away from the moral high ground then we are just giving them more ammunition. We list atrocities against our troops, they list atrocities against their women and children. There are no winners.To all those that say we are stopping attacks on our mainland then I say forget the propaganda, forget the weapons of mass destruction lies or Bin Laden hiding in Afghanistan rubbish..... Instead name just ONE Afghan citizen that has been caught committing an act of terrorism on our soil! How many Saudi names do we want? Who funded the attacks on the Twin Towers and what countries did the killers come from? How many of the hi-jackers were from Afghanistan? Yes Afghanistan was probably a training ground for terrorists but so was Southern Ireland (IRA) or not doubt a dozen other so called civilised country. Yesterday's terrorist can be tomorrow's President
To the best of my belief there has only been one truly successful 'war' or COIN operation and this was fought just prior to and maybe even at the start of the American attempts in Vietnam. Borneo, Borneo being a confrontation that could so easily have been the UK Vietnam. Instead we kept the hearts and minds in the bodies of the citizens of that country and won them over. Without doing that we become PRISONERS in the very country where we are allegedly conducting these so called Counter Insurgency Operations.
Yes we are the prisoners and have no real freedom of movement. We have failed in spades to win over the hearts and minds of the Afghan people and to me that war is now lost, we lost it and we lost it just because we failed to mix with, live with, play with those we believed needed our protection! You CANNOT move into a village for a month or so and then walk away!!
The evil, evil Taliban that we removed from power have grown from strength to strength and contrary to what the yes men or puppets want us to believe, the Taliban are in my opinion the government in waiting.. waiting for the day we eventually pull out of that war torn country
It is interesting that the BBC, a so called independent organisation, always trots out the total number of British service personnel killed every time there is a military death. I have never known them disclose the total number of civilian deaths every time a terrorist bomb goes off.
I remember when this whole thing started. British journanlists, both written and visual, were falling over themselves trying to get interviews with Taliban commanders so that they could sagely listen to them threaten how many British troops they were going to kill.
I remember when this whole thing started. British journanlists, both written and visual, were falling over themselves trying to get interviews with Taliban commanders so that they could sagely listen to them threaten how many British troops they were going to kill.
More bang for your buck
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It is interesting that the BBC, a so called independent organisation
To give an example of the Guardian's mind-set they ran an article last week saying that it was perfectly justifiable for the noted California scientist and president of the Pacific Institute, Peter Gleick, to fraudulently obtain documents by identity theft from the Heartland Institute and possibly be the author of a forged document purported to come from them. Why? Because they say it's a heretical organization that is anti carbon induced global warming and they wanted to show it was funded by big bad coal/oil, which it isn't.
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The invasion of Afghanistan has given ten years of relative peace and saved an unknown number of lives by preventing the proliferation of Al Qaeda style terrorism on a world wide basis.
Eh, would you like to put a figure on how many have died in various global incidents over the last 11 years?????? Take, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kenya, Somalia, Yemen, Libya, Syria, Egypt, want me to go on?
If that is relative global peace then god help us all
It is a very ill divided world.
However, choosing your region in which to crusade, to impose your salavation and democracy on, and then wonder why it goes pear shaped, is IMO juvenile in the extreme. I really feel for the military here. These political incompetents from Bush/Rumsfeld, Bliar/Straw, have created one almighty mess, that frankly, I am not sure how any of us can get out of.
The next five years might be very interesting
Eh, would you like to put a figure on how many have died in various global incidents over the last 11 years?????? Take, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kenya, Somalia, Yemen, Libya, Syria, Egypt, want me to go on?
If that is relative global peace then god help us all
It is a very ill divided world.
However, choosing your region in which to crusade, to impose your salavation and democracy on, and then wonder why it goes pear shaped, is IMO juvenile in the extreme. I really feel for the military here. These political incompetents from Bush/Rumsfeld, Bliar/Straw, have created one almighty mess, that frankly, I am not sure how any of us can get out of.
The next five years might be very interesting
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The various UK governments who have got us into, or are keeping us in, this mess seemed to have two aims. Firstly, to stop Al Qaeda from developing a home base from which to launch their attacks on the UK and its interests. Secondly, to stop the country exporting opium.
As we have heard on previous posts, we have achieved the first aim. It's not AQ that are killing ISAF troops in Afghanistan, it's the Taliban. They pose no threat to the UK (or indeed US) outside that country. They just want the infidels out of their country, so that they can return it to the dark ages, and control the drug trade. I say pull out now, and let them. UK troops are being killed because they are there. Remove them from that country, and no more will be killed by the Taleban.
As for eradicating the drug trade, we (and the US) have spectacularly failed in that regard. Last year's crop was a record high.
When we finally leave, the country will descend into those dark ages anyway. We should not lose one more UK life by prolonging this, ultimately futile, operation.
As we have heard on previous posts, we have achieved the first aim. It's not AQ that are killing ISAF troops in Afghanistan, it's the Taliban. They pose no threat to the UK (or indeed US) outside that country. They just want the infidels out of their country, so that they can return it to the dark ages, and control the drug trade. I say pull out now, and let them. UK troops are being killed because they are there. Remove them from that country, and no more will be killed by the Taleban.
As for eradicating the drug trade, we (and the US) have spectacularly failed in that regard. Last year's crop was a record high.
When we finally leave, the country will descend into those dark ages anyway. We should not lose one more UK life by prolonging this, ultimately futile, operation.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The two rules of strategy
1. Never fight a war on 2 fronts
2. Never invade Afghanistan
Simples
1. Never fight a war on 2 fronts
2. Never invade Afghanistan
Simples
Firstly, to stop Al Qaeda from developing a home base from which to launch their attacks on the UK and its interests. Secondly, to stop the country exporting opium.
As we have heard on previous posts, we have achieved the first aim.
As we have heard on previous posts, we have achieved the first aim.
Funny how the perps just got trained up in Pakistan instead.
Generally
One might ask if interfering did anything positive anywhere and get a similar set of answers. One might ask if the Roman interference in Britain was justified or effective. Here we are using their alphabet, a lot of their laws and words. And in other places like Zimbabwe these ideas have been passed on and the battle for fairness and decency is being fought out there. Perhaps this is the very beginning of a long road for Afghanistan - as long as it is anywhere else and as much in need of a push if not more.