How many more lives?
Now, I'm not exactly what you would call a bleeding heart liberal, and when operations in Afganistan kicked off I found it a damn sight easier to explain what we were doing and justify why we were there when asked by friends and family.
But a decade on from our initial foray into the Fourth Anglo-Afghan War (the Pashtuns have very long memories and as far as they are concerned, this is just an extension of previous punch-ups), frankly, we have lost our way as a corporate entity and I and my colleagues often struggle to explain to each other exactly what we are doing there. Hardly a resounding endorsement of government policy when those charged with its execution struggle to understand why or what we are trying to achieve. And as an example and off the top of my head, in my time, the UK involvement in Afghanistan has been labelled as:
Supporting the US in the immediate post-9/11 period
Defeating Al Qaeda and ensuring they can never return to use Afghanistan as a base
Counter-insurgency 2006 onwards in support of ISAF operations against a resurgent Taliban
Lead nation for counter-narcotics
Nation-building
Creating the conditions for the political process to succeed.
So much for selection and maintenance of the aim. If I were being charitable, I would suggest that the constant shifting focus was all about politicans being pragmatic and responding to the conditions on the ground. If I were being honest, I would suggest that the constant shifting focus was all about the politicians being confused about what they actually want to achieve, and not being willing to resource it adequately or being willing to accept the financial and human costs have found themselves shifting to more what might be perceived as more achievable objectives.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the campaign, to borrow a phrase from the Army, we are where we are. And now we find ourselves being responsible for setting the conditions for the political process to lay foundations and grow. Unfortunately, that isn't working either. The Afghan regime is as corrupt as others that have gone before it, both in Afghanistan and elsewhere in the region. Coupled with this is the blatant and totally undisguised lack of trust between the main players at the strategic political level meaning that the military can launch as many operations as they like to shape and secure the environment, but until the politicians pull their collective fingers out and sort their piece out, we aren't going to achieve a damn thing.
Unfortunately, whilst in the European financial crisis where the politicians were found wanting and the bond markets effectively did what the EU singularly refused to do, there are no extra-judicial institutions capable of forcing the politicians' hands in Afghanistan. So come 2014, we will pull out and be left standing there looking at each other and asking just what the previous decade was all about.
So no, after more than 10 years in Afghanistan, I really can't see it having a particularly pretty ending. No doubt we will leave in a fanfare of glory, but the real test of whether or not we succeeded will be what happens to the Afghan government and the people at large once we have gone. And current betting is split between the country last 4 days, 4 weeks or 4 months before the Taliban take over again.
But a decade on from our initial foray into the Fourth Anglo-Afghan War (the Pashtuns have very long memories and as far as they are concerned, this is just an extension of previous punch-ups), frankly, we have lost our way as a corporate entity and I and my colleagues often struggle to explain to each other exactly what we are doing there. Hardly a resounding endorsement of government policy when those charged with its execution struggle to understand why or what we are trying to achieve. And as an example and off the top of my head, in my time, the UK involvement in Afghanistan has been labelled as:
Supporting the US in the immediate post-9/11 period
Defeating Al Qaeda and ensuring they can never return to use Afghanistan as a base
Counter-insurgency 2006 onwards in support of ISAF operations against a resurgent Taliban
Lead nation for counter-narcotics
Nation-building
Creating the conditions for the political process to succeed.
So much for selection and maintenance of the aim. If I were being charitable, I would suggest that the constant shifting focus was all about politicans being pragmatic and responding to the conditions on the ground. If I were being honest, I would suggest that the constant shifting focus was all about the politicians being confused about what they actually want to achieve, and not being willing to resource it adequately or being willing to accept the financial and human costs have found themselves shifting to more what might be perceived as more achievable objectives.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the campaign, to borrow a phrase from the Army, we are where we are. And now we find ourselves being responsible for setting the conditions for the political process to lay foundations and grow. Unfortunately, that isn't working either. The Afghan regime is as corrupt as others that have gone before it, both in Afghanistan and elsewhere in the region. Coupled with this is the blatant and totally undisguised lack of trust between the main players at the strategic political level meaning that the military can launch as many operations as they like to shape and secure the environment, but until the politicians pull their collective fingers out and sort their piece out, we aren't going to achieve a damn thing.
Unfortunately, whilst in the European financial crisis where the politicians were found wanting and the bond markets effectively did what the EU singularly refused to do, there are no extra-judicial institutions capable of forcing the politicians' hands in Afghanistan. So come 2014, we will pull out and be left standing there looking at each other and asking just what the previous decade was all about.
So no, after more than 10 years in Afghanistan, I really can't see it having a particularly pretty ending. No doubt we will leave in a fanfare of glory, but the real test of whether or not we succeeded will be what happens to the Afghan government and the people at large once we have gone. And current betting is split between the country last 4 days, 4 weeks or 4 months before the Taliban take over again.
Last edited by Melchett01; 12th Mar 2012 at 19:18.
Expecting uncorrupted government in less than a couple of generations is like expecting a house to be built from the roof down. Where are all the people who hold corruption in check if there's no troublesome middle class that gets cross and takes action?
I think that all that can be hoped for is some time of not-terribleness during which more people can have some kind of education and can move into towns. I would imagine that in Europe this phase happened during the reign of kings and emperors after the Romans but at least the Romans built towns and roads and provided a common language (to some) so that their hand in things still mattered hundreds of years later.
I think that all that can be hoped for is some time of not-terribleness during which more people can have some kind of education and can move into towns. I would imagine that in Europe this phase happened during the reign of kings and emperors after the Romans but at least the Romans built towns and roads and provided a common language (to some) so that their hand in things still mattered hundreds of years later.
The Romans?
All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
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In Vietnam, the military was sent in to do a job the politicians did not fully back. Remember? No bombing of Haiphong whenever Russian ships were unloading weapons for the North Vietnamese and the Cong and similar politically motivated stuff that undermined morale 
In Afghanistan, as far as there is (was) a clear enemy in the shape of the Taliban (who are/were supposed to be aiding Al Qaeda), the politicians have again got themselves in between the military and the enemy. This time around, the powerful weapon of psychological warfare has largely been taken from the military by banning effective methods such as the of spreading rumours that NATO bullets have been dipped in pork fat, etc.
Either you fight a war, or you want political correctness. The two do not go together.
It also does not help that certain female Western journalists broadcast from Afghanistan wearing a headscarf. After all, wasn't one of the messages of the NATO intervention that of improving women's rights in Afghanistan? Alex Crawford wearing a headscarf certainly does not deliver the message of Western women being free in their choice of garb.
In Afghanistan, as far as there is (was) a clear enemy in the shape of the Taliban (who are/were supposed to be aiding Al Qaeda), the politicians have again got themselves in between the military and the enemy. This time around, the powerful weapon of psychological warfare has largely been taken from the military by banning effective methods such as the of spreading rumours that NATO bullets have been dipped in pork fat, etc.
Either you fight a war, or you want political correctness. The two do not go together.
It also does not help that certain female Western journalists broadcast from Afghanistan wearing a headscarf. After all, wasn't one of the messages of the NATO intervention that of improving women's rights in Afghanistan? Alex Crawford wearing a headscarf certainly does not deliver the message of Western women being free in their choice of garb.
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Looking at his service record I'm not surprised he and more like him have not flipped before now.
A lot of attention being given to him right now but lets not forget all the poor people and their families that for whatever reason he ruined.
A lot of attention being given to him right now but lets not forget all the poor people and their families that for whatever reason he ruined.
Looking at his service record I'm not surprised he and more like him have not flipped before now.
We had a murder of civilians by a Soldier....what War hasn't. (Yes...a statement and not a question!)
Is it a surprise.....no...not really.
Is it tragic....yes...very!
Who is to blame.....everyone of us.
We have allowed the Politicians (civilian and military) to let our involvement in Afghanistan go on way too long. We allowed them to botch the Iraq War as well which led to almost a decade of fighting.
We have seen our Troops deploy repeatedly to both Iraq and Afghanistan....see them endure horrible conditions....death...mayhem...devastating wounds....and one combat tour after another...and a another...and another.
We went shopping, went down the Pub, and carried on as if there were no Wars, bleeding, and dying. It's nothing to do with me....after all we have an all volunteer Military....fighting is their chosen profession.
We have not mobilized for War. We have not renewed conscription, we have not rationed, but we have glorified the Warriors in a most shallow manner.
We supported our Military....except where it matters.
We let them down....by not seeing them brought home as quickly as possible after turning them loose to defeat the enemy. We hampered them with ROE's and policies that prevented them from being effective. We presented a Diplomatic posture that encouraged the Enemy. We tried to play nice and be all Politically Correct all the while dealing with folks who simply see that as being weak.
Before we blame Sgt Bales.....lets really look in the mirror and think about who is also to blame for what happened that night.
He might have pulled the Trigger.....but he sure had a lot of help from the rest of us. Let's judge him fairly....and to do that we have to look at the full array of factors and evidence that played a role in this tragedy.
If we did not speak up against the War and the way it has been conducted....we really have no grounds to speak up against Sgt Bales....as we were his accomplice the way I see it.
For those of you in the Military currently.....look around you....could it be one of your mates that succumbs to the pressure, stress, and ugliness you experience in combat? The line between Duty and plain ol' Murder is very thin at the best of times.....in the worst of times it gets really skinny.
It is time to bring the Troops home. We have lost too many lives, ruined too many lives, and gained not enough for the continued cost we will have to pay for our presence there.
I am a Vietnam Veteran....I know what it feels like to do that. I would not wish that on anyone but I also know when it is time to end the current misery. The Politicians have let us down again....that is the shame of it. The Troops have done their part and done so in an admirable way. The Country has let them down....we let the Politicians get away with their failures.
Is it a surprise.....no...not really.
Is it tragic....yes...very!
Who is to blame.....everyone of us.
We have allowed the Politicians (civilian and military) to let our involvement in Afghanistan go on way too long. We allowed them to botch the Iraq War as well which led to almost a decade of fighting.
We have seen our Troops deploy repeatedly to both Iraq and Afghanistan....see them endure horrible conditions....death...mayhem...devastating wounds....and one combat tour after another...and a another...and another.
We went shopping, went down the Pub, and carried on as if there were no Wars, bleeding, and dying. It's nothing to do with me....after all we have an all volunteer Military....fighting is their chosen profession.
We have not mobilized for War. We have not renewed conscription, we have not rationed, but we have glorified the Warriors in a most shallow manner.
We supported our Military....except where it matters.
We let them down....by not seeing them brought home as quickly as possible after turning them loose to defeat the enemy. We hampered them with ROE's and policies that prevented them from being effective. We presented a Diplomatic posture that encouraged the Enemy. We tried to play nice and be all Politically Correct all the while dealing with folks who simply see that as being weak.
Before we blame Sgt Bales.....lets really look in the mirror and think about who is also to blame for what happened that night.
He might have pulled the Trigger.....but he sure had a lot of help from the rest of us. Let's judge him fairly....and to do that we have to look at the full array of factors and evidence that played a role in this tragedy.
If we did not speak up against the War and the way it has been conducted....we really have no grounds to speak up against Sgt Bales....as we were his accomplice the way I see it.
For those of you in the Military currently.....look around you....could it be one of your mates that succumbs to the pressure, stress, and ugliness you experience in combat? The line between Duty and plain ol' Murder is very thin at the best of times.....in the worst of times it gets really skinny.
It is time to bring the Troops home. We have lost too many lives, ruined too many lives, and gained not enough for the continued cost we will have to pay for our presence there.
I am a Vietnam Veteran....I know what it feels like to do that. I would not wish that on anyone but I also know when it is time to end the current misery. The Politicians have let us down again....that is the shame of it. The Troops have done their part and done so in an admirable way. The Country has let them down....we let the Politicians get away with their failures.
!
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I very humbly apologise if what I say causes offence but I cannot in all good faith sit back and listen to anyone that defends the conduct of a person of any nationality\religion\creed or colour that might have allegedly blown the brains out of a defenceless two year old infant or infants, along with their mothers. Not only were these people shot, but their bodies were then allegedly set alight.
I am NOT IN POSSESSION OF THE FACTS and if there were no deaths of innocent babies along with their mothers then obviously I will apologise but until we all know the facts then should we be condoning or condemning the actions of this individual?
We are in Afghanistan to protect the very people that have allegedly been killed and yes we are facing evil people that will not hesitate to commit inhuman acts.
As soon as I heard about this incident it was to be expected that we would hear a very strong defence regarding the alleged actions, that is what defence counsel is paid to do but if what is alleged happened, did happen then I stand by my words.
Apologies if this post causes offence but I just need to say my previous silence does not in any way mean I agree with the words of a forum member whose posts I have always respected and held in the highest regard.
Respect to ALL current and retired personnel who have fallen, or suffered at the hands of our enemies.
We shall ALWAYS remember them
PS
As I type this there is a feature on Sky News showing the repatriation of the Fallen from Afghanistan... Heart breaking to watch.
Yours sincerely,
John
I am NOT IN POSSESSION OF THE FACTS and if there were no deaths of innocent babies along with their mothers then obviously I will apologise but until we all know the facts then should we be condoning or condemning the actions of this individual?
We are in Afghanistan to protect the very people that have allegedly been killed and yes we are facing evil people that will not hesitate to commit inhuman acts.
As soon as I heard about this incident it was to be expected that we would hear a very strong defence regarding the alleged actions, that is what defence counsel is paid to do but if what is alleged happened, did happen then I stand by my words.
Apologies if this post causes offence but I just need to say my previous silence does not in any way mean I agree with the words of a forum member whose posts I have always respected and held in the highest regard.
Respect to ALL current and retired personnel who have fallen, or suffered at the hands of our enemies.
We shall ALWAYS remember them
PS
As I type this there is a feature on Sky News showing the repatriation of the Fallen from Afghanistan... Heart breaking to watch.
Yours sincerely,
John
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Glojo, I couldn't agree with you more under "normal circumstances" however, given that the man has served on multiple, bloody tours in Iraq and Afhanistan where he has seen untold horrors and was indeed himself injured twice, including a brain injury and losing part of his foot! On top of that he witnessed the death of his friend the day before!
Like you say we dont know the facts yet but it would not be a surprise to me or many others
If he didn't genuinely go wibble.
Mental heath issues for our vetetans after what they have been though will be a major concern for a very long time after we finally leave that dusty ****hole.
Like you say we dont know the facts yet but it would not be a surprise to me or many others
If he didn't genuinely go wibble.
Mental heath issues for our vetetans after what they have been though will be a major concern for a very long time after we finally leave that dusty ****hole.
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Must back up SASless.
If you have time have a listen to the following lecture by Karl Marlantes
http://www.pritzkermilitarylibary.or...karl-marlantes. If link does not work google it.
What he expands on about the vietnam experience could equally apply to the afgan experience.
If you have time have a listen to the following lecture by Karl Marlantes
http://www.pritzkermilitarylibary.or...karl-marlantes. If link does not work google it.
What he expands on about the vietnam experience could equally apply to the afgan experience.
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Well written SASless.
Glojo, I disagree with your thoughts on this one. What the Taliban get away with is absolutely horrendous; considerably worse than what this one soldier has done; considerably worse than what the Western forces have done. The Taliban atrocities are rarely ever mentioned. These atrocities are mainly against Afghanistan citizens.
I do not condone the actions carried out by the US soldier, but living in environments such as he has experienced is bound to cause a fair number of mental abnormalities in many people.
Life experiences are what makes you you.
Glojo, I disagree with your thoughts on this one. What the Taliban get away with is absolutely horrendous; considerably worse than what this one soldier has done; considerably worse than what the Western forces have done. The Taliban atrocities are rarely ever mentioned. These atrocities are mainly against Afghanistan citizens.
I do not condone the actions carried out by the US soldier, but living in environments such as he has experienced is bound to cause a fair number of mental abnormalities in many people.
Life experiences are what makes you you.