No cats and flaps ...... back to F35B?
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Glojo,
The RAF and RN have been exchanging for years and years. Lets take the RAF then... they have had conventional carrier exchanges at no less than 3 US Naval Service bases for a large number of years. In fact, a recently retired 4* officer was also an exchange officer who had carrier experience. The problem has been that, until the sudden change from the -B to the -C, conventional UK carrier ops was nothing but a long forgotten myth of the 1970s Cold War era when folk talked of angled decks, steam catapults, jets that were as heavy as the ship but still got airborne, the Buccaneer, the Buccaneer and...oh, yes, the Buccaneer! So, those exchange officers with carrier expertise came back in the 80s, 90s and 'noughties' with no platform to continue their newly-acquired skill. So, back to their old jet and bravo old bean.
18 months ago the unthinkable happened. The UK actually wanted an angled deck, special electric catapults....you get my drift right?! Anyway, many people thought that Britain's Navy would once again be a huge maritime player on the World stage with our two 65,000kg wonderous carriers and a bunch of amazing stealth jets: Awesome indeed! But, it proved to be a tease. We are now left licking our wounds because we're back where we began before that glimmer of hope came our way. People are upset, and some shall forever haunt these forums to speak of the F-35C with a fondness comparable to the Buccaneer, but it shall, alas, never be....
So, Glojo, the skills that the current exchange pilots are getting are not directly transferable to the ramped QEC. That said, their knowledge and experience of the big deck environment and of being on a bigger carrier; the pace of life; the sights, sounds and smells etc, are all relevant and very transferable. However, from a pure piloting perspective, the best place right now to 'keep one's hand in' would be either flying the F-35B in the USA or flying the AV-8B with the USMC. STOVL Ops are where we're headed.
If we are having RAF pilots deploy onto US carriers for the full deployments, lerarning the full skills of operating from the decks of these carriers including night flying etc then hats off to them. The shore based operational RAF squadrons are arguably an expensive way to use those resources and why not have them operate from carriers but of course retain one for the duties you have outlined. Far better to deploy from a fully equipped mobile airfield as opposed to what we saw over Libya?
18 months ago the unthinkable happened. The UK actually wanted an angled deck, special electric catapults....you get my drift right?! Anyway, many people thought that Britain's Navy would once again be a huge maritime player on the World stage with our two 65,000kg wonderous carriers and a bunch of amazing stealth jets: Awesome indeed! But, it proved to be a tease. We are now left licking our wounds because we're back where we began before that glimmer of hope came our way. People are upset, and some shall forever haunt these forums to speak of the F-35C with a fondness comparable to the Buccaneer, but it shall, alas, never be....
So, Glojo, the skills that the current exchange pilots are getting are not directly transferable to the ramped QEC. That said, their knowledge and experience of the big deck environment and of being on a bigger carrier; the pace of life; the sights, sounds and smells etc, are all relevant and very transferable. However, from a pure piloting perspective, the best place right now to 'keep one's hand in' would be either flying the F-35B in the USA or flying the AV-8B with the USMC. STOVL Ops are where we're headed.
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glojo
"As far as I am aware there is not one single senior Naval officer that has had any experience of serving aboard a conventional aircraft carrier?"
Something that was written during the Libyan campaign jogged my memory that the 1SL had served on a carrier so I checked.
The current 1SL commanded the Aircraft carrier HMS Illustrious as did the previous 1SL.
(and while checking the above was correct, I noticed that Admiral Sir George Zambella also served on the HMS Illustrious as a helicopter pilot).
"As far as I am aware there is not one single senior Naval officer that has had any experience of serving aboard a conventional aircraft carrier?"
Something that was written during the Libyan campaign jogged my memory that the 1SL had served on a carrier so I checked.
The current 1SL commanded the Aircraft carrier HMS Illustrious as did the previous 1SL.
(and while checking the above was correct, I noticed that Admiral Sir George Zambella also served on the HMS Illustrious as a helicopter pilot).
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Illustrious (R06) is, was, an Invincible Class carrier, NOT a conventional carrier.
Illustrious (R87) was a conventional carrier that was in service until 1954.
'Conventional carrier' is a phrase that, to most people here I think, would bring to mind catapults and arrestor gear.
There may be serving RN who were aboard Ark Royal, our last conventional carrier, but they'd be aged mid 50s and would, 34 years ago, have been quite junior.
Illustrious (R87) was a conventional carrier that was in service until 1954.
'Conventional carrier' is a phrase that, to most people here I think, would bring to mind catapults and arrestor gear.
There may be serving RN who were aboard Ark Royal, our last conventional carrier, but they'd be aged mid 50s and would, 34 years ago, have been quite junior.
Last edited by Willard Whyte; 25th Jun 2012 at 22:18.
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Wise words ICBM and thank you WW for the clarification... Ark Royal whose final voyage was way back in 1978. Phantoms, Buccaneers and the Gannet....
Definitely a possibility to still ahve a serving sailor but I doubt they would have held a senior position on that Audacious ship!
Definitely a possibility to still ahve a serving sailor but I doubt they would have held a senior position on that Audacious ship!
Suspicion breeds confidence
I suspect any serving officers that served on Ark Royal (IV) are enjoying a well earned rest after 34 years. We are not going back to that, so lets embrace the new world and show what we can do. I have every faith in the navy to make this work and it will. So lets get a reality check and stop going round in circles.
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Originally Posted by Tourist
Italy, Spain, Russia, India, Thailand etc are just playing at it.
But India? They have maintained carrier capability continuously since 1962, and currently have 1 "second-hand" carrier in service, a second "second-hand" carrier on sea trials and scheduled for delivery at the end of this year, and a third "home-built" carrier about half-completed!
They are even in the design phase for their second home-built carrier, which is planned to bring their fleet to 3 active ships (since Viraat, ex-Hermes, will be decommissioned no later than the commissioning of their first home-built carrier). And serious consideration is being taken for this second home-build to have "cat&trap" fitting, although it might just be a repeat of the first, due to budget considerations.
That seems like a pretty darned serious devotion to a real carrier force to me!
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GreenKnight
Yes, fair point, they don't really deserve to be in that group.
What I should have said is that India is investing a lot in getting to a decent capability because they recognise the requirement, but as yet do not have a serious capability.
Russia could be said to be the other side of the curve.
They used to want a decent capability, but pretty much gave up during the dark years of the USSR breakup.
Yes, fair point, they don't really deserve to be in that group.
What I should have said is that India is investing a lot in getting to a decent capability because they recognise the requirement, but as yet do not have a serious capability.
Russia could be said to be the other side of the curve.
They used to want a decent capability, but pretty much gave up during the dark years of the USSR breakup.
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The Indians are no fools - they have two serious potential adversaries on their borders - the Chinese they can't fight conventionally due to the terrain so that requires a missile force. They have proved several times they can roll up the Pakistani's in a conventional war
But they also have a lot of ocean around - and a vested interest in the Gulf area - a couple of carriers and one or two SSN's mean they can do what they damn well like from Cape of Good Hope to Singapore
But they also have a lot of ocean around - and a vested interest in the Gulf area - a couple of carriers and one or two SSN's mean they can do what they damn well like from Cape of Good Hope to Singapore
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Not an Officer but there was an Aircraft Handler on Ark V who had served on Ark IV and been for a swim off Atlantic Conveyor in '82. An absolute wealth of experience and good dits who may just about still be in the Navy. Sadly he will be long gone by the time QE is ready.
I think the benefits of experience operating from a big deck will be relevant to those UK aviators of both cloths currently flying F-18s. They'll probably find it quite spacious on QE compared to what they are used to as we will never have a similar number of aircraft onboard as a CVN. Hopefully we will retain enough and get them into the F-35 training pipeline soon enough for it to be worthwhile.
When given a choice between 1 ship with Cats and Traps and F-35C in 2023ish or 2 ships with F-35B in 2018ish then of course 1SL is going to go for the second option. There's a lot of elements to a carrier apart from the CAG, and nearly all of them involve RN manpower.
Post Afghanistan JFH was getting worked back up to where it wanted to be with regards maritime ops, sadly it wasn't allowed to get there.
We have already had RN and RAF intimately involved onboard the USS Wasp for F-35B initial sea trials so the next step is to build on the upcoming trials of both F-35B and F-35C as a precursor to First of Class Flying trials from the QE. We have the right people in the right jobs to do this today.
I think the benefits of experience operating from a big deck will be relevant to those UK aviators of both cloths currently flying F-18s. They'll probably find it quite spacious on QE compared to what they are used to as we will never have a similar number of aircraft onboard as a CVN. Hopefully we will retain enough and get them into the F-35 training pipeline soon enough for it to be worthwhile.
When given a choice between 1 ship with Cats and Traps and F-35C in 2023ish or 2 ships with F-35B in 2018ish then of course 1SL is going to go for the second option. There's a lot of elements to a carrier apart from the CAG, and nearly all of them involve RN manpower.
Post Afghanistan JFH was getting worked back up to where it wanted to be with regards maritime ops, sadly it wasn't allowed to get there.
We have already had RN and RAF intimately involved onboard the USS Wasp for F-35B initial sea trials so the next step is to build on the upcoming trials of both F-35B and F-35C as a precursor to First of Class Flying trials from the QE. We have the right people in the right jobs to do this today.
Last edited by WhiteOvies; 27th Jun 2012 at 16:08.
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Originally Posted by White Overalls
When given a choice between 1 ship with Cats and Traps and F-35C in 2023ish or 2 ships with F-35B in 2018ish then of course 1SL is going to go for the second option. There's a lot of elements to a carrier apart from the CAG, and nearly all of them involve RN manpower.
Do you think we will have two operational ships with air wings by 2018-ish or even 2022 -ish? I would like to think you are right but that date is not that far off and so far all we read in our papers is doom followed by gloom regarding the aircraft!
Fingers crossed
Oh my.
One takes a couple of weeks off, dropping off the odd thumb-drive at nuclear research facilities here and there, and the thread has just surged on, in runaway mode.
Also hearing a lot of LockMart people and their trained parrots (and I am not referring to anyone here) informing all and sundry that the program is just going abso
inglutely wonderfully well, and that the professional customers are just spouting wind about 2019 IOT&E completion dates, A-model cost per flight hour being almost 60 per cent higher than the F-16 and so forth.
Which is all reassuring, in view of the fact that they haven't started delivering Lot 3, which was supposed to be finished last December, and that the earned value management system (a quite basic bit of accounting, intended to show the customer that the money handed to the contractor paid for what it was supposed to pay for) has been deemed unfixable for now, having been broken since 2009.
One takes a couple of weeks off, dropping off the odd thumb-drive at nuclear research facilities here and there, and the thread has just surged on, in runaway mode.
Also hearing a lot of LockMart people and their trained parrots (and I am not referring to anyone here) informing all and sundry that the program is just going abso
inglutely wonderfully well, and that the professional customers are just spouting wind about 2019 IOT&E completion dates, A-model cost per flight hour being almost 60 per cent higher than the F-16 and so forth. Which is all reassuring, in view of the fact that they haven't started delivering Lot 3, which was supposed to be finished last December, and that the earned value management system (a quite basic bit of accounting, intended to show the customer that the money handed to the contractor paid for what it was supposed to pay for) has been deemed unfixable for now, having been broken since 2009.
Thread Starter
Any more info on the EVM status?
It can't just be 'broken' - where is the baseline and how bad are the indices?
Where does f35 sit regarding the auto cancel triggers I wonder?
It can't just be 'broken' - where is the baseline and how bad are the indices?
Where does f35 sit regarding the auto cancel triggers I wonder?
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Glojo,
Apologies, probably overstated things a bit there: we won't have both ships up and running by 2018 but we should have initial sea trials sorted. The time frame we're working to according to the politicians is 2020 I believe so 1 ship (QE) plus first Sqn of jets , with the second ship (PoW) getting ready to go for when QE goes into her first refit seems realistic.
But at least 2 ships will be coming into service rather than just 1, with the other being sold/mothballed. I am just hoping that all of this doesn't change again in 2015....
I wouldn't believe everything in the papers!
Apologies, probably overstated things a bit there: we won't have both ships up and running by 2018 but we should have initial sea trials sorted. The time frame we're working to according to the politicians is 2020 I believe so 1 ship (QE) plus first Sqn of jets , with the second ship (PoW) getting ready to go for when QE goes into her first refit seems realistic.
But at least 2 ships will be coming into service rather than just 1, with the other being sold/mothballed. I am just hoping that all of this doesn't change again in 2015....
I wouldn't believe everything in the papers!
Last edited by WhiteOvies; 27th Jun 2012 at 19:20.
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lets see...
the british were either inventors of or instrumental in developing:
jet engines
RADAR
steam catapult
angled flight deck
and you guys won't invest in a ''real'' carrier? even the French have a nuclear carrier.
and is it RUE Brittania or Rule?
the british were either inventors of or instrumental in developing:
jet engines
RADAR
steam catapult
angled flight deck
and you guys won't invest in a ''real'' carrier? even the French have a nuclear carrier.
and is it RUE Brittania or Rule?
