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No cats and flaps ...... back to F35B?

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No cats and flaps ...... back to F35B?

Old 7th Jun 2012, 20:31
  #1021 (permalink)  
 
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ICBM and Lowe F,

Sorry, but Typhoon STOBAR is a non-starter in my view - see my previous posts on this particular piece of BAES nonsense. Happy to expand if required, but I don't want to bore. Much the same goes for 'Sea Gripen'. It's possible that a Typhoon could launch off a ramp, but not with a useful payload. Recovery? Problematic.

Bottom line - my view- unless you use a STOVL aircraft that can stop and then land (thanks John Farley), and use a ski jump, you need a proper cat and trap aircraft to go to sea.

The UK looked at ramps on carriers in the 1950s, and the USN have tried ramps with cats, tested F-14s, T-2s and Hornets. The USAF also looked at the concept. The USN concluded that as long as you had a good cat, the extra safety and performance offered by a ramp was offset by limitations on ramp entry speed.

Hope this helps

Best Regards as ever to all,

Engines
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Old 7th Jun 2012, 21:11
  #1022 (permalink)  
 
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I think it's fair to say that if F-35B is cancelled the RN will lose both carriers. Too late to change spec again and even if it wasn't the added delay and cost would see it abandoned as fulfilling none of its raison d'ętre. So the best hope our dark blue FW aviators now have is -B.

Having only one jet type that could use a STOVL ship certainly removes all fallback options for SDSR 15. Someone has played a blinder if this was 'as intended'
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Old 7th Jun 2012, 21:13
  #1023 (permalink)  
 
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F-35C Roll-In Arrestment Tests OK - May 2012

How well is F-35 testing going? 07 June 2012 by Barry Graff

http://whythef35.********.com.au/201...ing-going.html

“...All numbers and events are as of May 31st [2012].... CF-3 performed a total of 18 successful roll-in arrestments [MK-7 (6 with risers and 4 with no risers) and E-28 (8 arrestments)] at Lakehurst from 80 to 100 knots ground speed....”
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Old 7th Jun 2012, 21:19
  #1024 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks Engines. That Sea Typhoon is a non-starter was my conclusion too but I just wrapped it up in so much gasbagging the point got lost in the confusion.
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Old 7th Jun 2012, 22:04
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ICBM wrote:

I think it's fair to say that if F-35B is cancelled the RN will lose both carriers. Too late to change spec again and even if it wasn't the added delay and cost would see it abandoned as fulfilling none of its raison d'ętre. So the best hope our dark blue FW aviators now have is -B.
I rather doubt it - several billion will have been spent, and HMS QE & PoW are a bit big to be LPHs forever. They'd get converted for cats 'n' traps, which whilst embarrassing would get us back to the right answer.

S41
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Old 8th Jun 2012, 06:38
  #1026 (permalink)  
 
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We would sell them to a country who could afford to convert them
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Old 8th Jun 2012, 07:28
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the Brazilians or the Chinese might take them............... the Indians certainly would
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Old 8th Jun 2012, 10:55
  #1028 (permalink)  
 
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HH

I agree. India would convert them and fit any type of Cat and Trap to put their jets on. It's hard to see them not making an offer if F-35B does become a victim of events. They have plenty of Rupee to do it with.

Politically I don't think China would get a look in.

If I were 1st Sea Lord I'd pray STOVL endures.....or our Defence Budget increases to afford a conversion for both
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Old 8th Jun 2012, 13:13
  #1029 (permalink)  
 
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China is no chance but India already have their hands full, don't think they have the budget for another carrier.

The F-35B isn't going to be cancelled, there is too many countries depending on it and its capabilities make it irreplaceable (in the next 20 years).

The A and C can be dropped, as long as the US wants to continue to use 1960 designs for the next 20 years.

The F-35 is a short range aircraft, if they want to start a war with China (which they will lose no matter what) they a new aircraft like the J-20 will be needed and its a completely different requirement.

The F-35 does what it does and its nearly ready, talk of cancelling is stupid at this stage.

Last edited by peter we; 8th Jun 2012 at 13:14.
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Old 8th Jun 2012, 16:56
  #1030 (permalink)  
 
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The F-35 does what it does and its nearly ready
Your definition of 'Nearly' is probably very different from most peoples
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Old 8th Jun 2012, 17:34
  #1031 (permalink)  
 
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The F-35B isn't going to be cancelled, there is too many countries depending on it and its capabilities make it irreplaceable (in the next 20 years).
My bold
US Marine Corp at 340 ish
RAF/RN at <138
Marina Militaire at 22

Can't see any other customers and we were the ones wanting to pull out.
Smoke and mirrors, I suspect MoD have gone back to the expensive short legged version to dig the MC out of a hole, maybe under threat of losing that national design sovereignty stuff of a couple of years ago?
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Old 8th Jun 2012, 20:24
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You forgot to mention Spain which will probably be wanting 22+ F-35Bs around the end of the decade and then thee is also the question of Japan, which is building up a fleet of flat tops...
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Old 8th Jun 2012, 22:53
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What about Thailand their AV-8S (if any are still flying) must be close to scrap by now.
Would the F-35B fit on the Chakri Naruebet?
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Old 8th Jun 2012, 23:28
  #1034 (permalink)  
 
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The F-35B isn't going to be cancelled, there is too many countries depending on it and its capabilities make it irreplaceable (in the next 20 years).

The A and C can be dropped, as long as the US wants to continue to use 1960 designs for the next 20 years.
Peter - the F-35B could be cancelled and that is what is being loosely thrown about here as a mere supposition. I'm sorry but if the F-35A goes the Programme goes as the cost per JSF will become unaffordable; also FYI there are more countries interested in buying the A than all of those buying the other variants - USAF, Netherlands, Turkey, Australia, Denmark, Italy, Singapore, Israel, Japan. The potential order book for the A is around 70% of the total anticipated JSF build. Performance in test will dictate how that changes and right now F-35B is due to IOC 2 years later than the USMC desired therefore 'nearly ready' is a tad optimistic. I think nearly ready technically occurs in Nov 2014.
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Old 9th Jun 2012, 07:50
  #1035 (permalink)  
 
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Obi Wan,
SPAIN. Buying F35???? Are you havin a larf... They are about to sink in a mire of eurodebt, as are Italy. After they default and the euro drowns, then standby for F35 to be struck off the order books in droves.
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Old 9th Jun 2012, 08:29
  #1036 (permalink)  
 
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High Spirits,

Didn't say they could afford them, just said they wanted them! They have two STOVL flat tops (1 new), their Harriers can last another decade probably after which they may be in a position to order replacements which means F-35Bs. Maybe they will still be in the crapper economically, maybe not. Doesn't change the fact the requirement is there.

As for Thailand, Chakri Narubet can accomodate F-35Bs, but their budget can't afford the running costs of the AV-8As they already have (betond minimum ops for show). Unless their economy seriously revives they won't be ordering new aircraft anytime soon.
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Old 9th Jun 2012, 11:35
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Engines,

It occurs to me that STOBAR makes more sense if you ask a different question.

I think it's generally agreed that any aircraft will be limited off STOBAR versus a cat or a runway. But even so, how would the range, payload and performance of the Typhoon or Sea Gripen compare with the F-35B, from the same deck roll?
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Old 9th Jun 2012, 12:11
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just came across this by Sharkey - written in January
Sharkey's World: "Navalised" Typhoon

would appear to be quite an argument against Typhoon STOBAR - and presumably the same arguments would affect Gripen?
However how accurate is he?
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Old 9th Jun 2012, 12:25
  #1039 (permalink)  
 
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The USA has cancelled some pretty big programs in the past - all the way back to the Valkyrie and Skybolt

The F-35 cancellation is the easiest single cost saving open to whoever comes in as President in January
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Old 9th Jun 2012, 12:56
  #1040 (permalink)  
 
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At the cost of world credibility as a military program partner
If F-35 gets cancelled, no-one will ever trust the USA with a major joint project again.
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