Future RN Carrier Plane Guard/SAR/Utility aircraft?
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Future RN Carrier Plane Guard/SAR/Utility aircraft?
To quote Not a Boffin from another thread...
...is a good question that perhaps is worth a thread of its own.
For you FAA chaps what do you see providing this role in the future?
What is desperately needed is for someone to articulate clearly the VERTREP requirement for both QEC and the wider fleet. If I were a requirementeer, I might want to include a planeguard/utility element to that requirement as well.
Not at all sure the solution to that requirement looks like a Merlin. It looks to me like something with about 6000lbs USL, cabin space for 6/7 (winchman, swimmer plus up to 4 or 5 inadvertent swimmers), minimum required avionics (assuming no-one is thinking JPR/CSAR) simple airframe with simple log support and able to tolerate repeated sorties in one day.
Not at all sure the solution to that requirement looks like a Merlin. It looks to me like something with about 6000lbs USL, cabin space for 6/7 (winchman, swimmer plus up to 4 or 5 inadvertent swimmers), minimum required avionics (assuming no-one is thinking JPR/CSAR) simple airframe with simple log support and able to tolerate repeated sorties in one day.
For you FAA chaps what do you see providing this role in the future?
- ASW merlin? Expensive for the role
- Utility (Ex RAF SH) merlin? No radar
- Wildcat? Small
- Trusty old Mk5 Sea King kept going just a little longer?
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Firstly, does anybody seriously think that we would buy another type purely for these roles?
Secondly, there will already be ASW Merlin around anyway. Merlin may be expensive, but most of the cost is in just having them. Once you have them, you might as well fly them.
Secondly, there will already be ASW Merlin around anyway. Merlin may be expensive, but most of the cost is in just having them. Once you have them, you might as well fly them.
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Anyone that is under any belief that we will purchase another helicopter type is certainly deluding themselves.
Multi-roling, secondary tasks, cross capability, best effort, bodging, you can call it what you want, but a new aircraft type, sorry unless HMG has just one a multi double, triple super Euromillions lottery I doubt it very much.
The 6 Danish Merlins I could potentially see being used, but we have first dibs on those I believe as rumour has it that any spare crews left over at the end of the Merlin transition will be creamed off with those left from the SAR community for our RAF JPR Force.
Multi-roling, secondary tasks, cross capability, best effort, bodging, you can call it what you want, but a new aircraft type, sorry unless HMG has just one a multi double, triple super Euromillions lottery I doubt it very much.
The 6 Danish Merlins I could potentially see being used, but we have first dibs on those I believe as rumour has it that any spare crews left over at the end of the Merlin transition will be creamed off with those left from the SAR community for our RAF JPR Force.
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Tourist,
I totally agree however with the numbers of Merlin2 reduced and their primary roles in other spheres it may no longer be the case that they are always around. I recall that the Sea King 5 was/is? still embarked to provide the Utility/SAR role on the CVS despite a merlin sqn being there. I appreciate deck space in the future will be less of a problem but in the past the merlin were dispatched to other ships in the fleet to make space for FW activity.
Not saying the answer is buying a new type but for those at sea having a dedicated utility cab for HDS etc without taking an aircraft from primary role is becoming more & more essential for so many reasons.
But I'll leave it to you experts to debate....
SW
I totally agree however with the numbers of Merlin2 reduced and their primary roles in other spheres it may no longer be the case that they are always around. I recall that the Sea King 5 was/is? still embarked to provide the Utility/SAR role on the CVS despite a merlin sqn being there. I appreciate deck space in the future will be less of a problem but in the past the merlin were dispatched to other ships in the fleet to make space for FW activity.
Not saying the answer is buying a new type but for those at sea having a dedicated utility cab for HDS etc without taking an aircraft from primary role is becoming more & more essential for so many reasons.
But I'll leave it to you experts to debate....
SW
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SW
You are quite right, we did used to carry the Mk5s for the role, but there is a big difference between setting up a whole new supply chain/training pipeline etc and just grabbing a couple of spare Seakings from an already established sqn.
Even the US Navy has moved to the one type for everything idea.
You are quite right, we did used to carry the Mk5s for the role, but there is a big difference between setting up a whole new supply chain/training pipeline etc and just grabbing a couple of spare Seakings from an already established sqn.
Even the US Navy has moved to the one type for everything idea.
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It also depends on how you plan to use them. if it is alert on deck, then you can think of a Merlin solution. However if you are planning to do an airborne alert then you don't wanna spend Merlin hours not to mention the maintenance that goes with them...
French Aéronavale carry out the Plane guard with Dauphin, small civvy cab thus saving lots of precious Lynx/Panther(although it's the same cab)/NH90 hours. they even have reverted to the mighty Alouette III for daytime plane guard.
French Aéronavale carry out the Plane guard with Dauphin, small civvy cab thus saving lots of precious Lynx/Panther(although it's the same cab)/NH90 hours. they even have reverted to the mighty Alouette III for daytime plane guard.
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Spanish Waltzer,
Funnily enough I have been wondering exactly the same. What are we going to use that meets the tasks carried out by Greyhound, Hawkeye & Prowler along with ASW & Plane Guard tasking. I also believe we will need LRMPA.
Funnily enough I have been wondering exactly the same. What are we going to use that meets the tasks carried out by Greyhound, Hawkeye & Prowler along with ASW & Plane Guard tasking. I also believe we will need LRMPA.
When I posted this in the Puma /Merlin thread it was intended to highlight the gap in current thinking about other shipborne roles. I certainly have no illusions about the cost implications of adding types. That said, some of these things won't go away, just because we want them to.
Having seen the Vertrep requirements for a QE with a full deck, you're talking about dedicating three cabs to task for a number of hours, plus two jackstay rigs. Now it's possible the immediate requirement may have been descoped, but that doesn't change what the ships may eventually be capable of / required to do.
The US use a variety of means to RAS their CVN, although as Tourist points out, SH/MH 60 is now flavour of choice for all things rotary. However, their HS units usually include an HH60 or three for planeguard/SAR/CSAR. We may not be used to a planeguard airborne based on CVS experience, but larger launch/recovery cycles for cat n'trap may be a bit different.
All I'm suggesting is that we think about these things rather than pretending (for some good reasons) that they don't exist.
Having seen the Vertrep requirements for a QE with a full deck, you're talking about dedicating three cabs to task for a number of hours, plus two jackstay rigs. Now it's possible the immediate requirement may have been descoped, but that doesn't change what the ships may eventually be capable of / required to do.
The US use a variety of means to RAS their CVN, although as Tourist points out, SH/MH 60 is now flavour of choice for all things rotary. However, their HS units usually include an HH60 or three for planeguard/SAR/CSAR. We may not be used to a planeguard airborne based on CVS experience, but larger launch/recovery cycles for cat n'trap may be a bit different.
All I'm suggesting is that we think about these things rather than pretending (for some good reasons) that they don't exist.
An interesting thread, and one that highlights what appears to be a lack of "joined up" thinking over the whole Carrier Strike concept. Yes the F35C has a lot of gas, but surely a tanker is a good idea? Perhaps a contingent of S-3s dragged from the boneyard might be a sensible option? Cheapish to buy/run and usable for AAR or a cheap bomb truck to save F35 hours in a permissive air environment; gosh, could even do ASW too....and a lot cheaper than burning F35 hours as a buddy-buddy or, worst case, planting one for lack of gas.
We need to think seriously about organic ASAC/AWAC; a RW solution smacks of yesterday's thinking with a STOVL ship and "jobs for the boys" for Yeovil. The answer from a radar horizon and interoperability viewpoint is obviously E2; perhaps a joint sqn with the French? Or, perhaps, bin the E3 and have our own airframes. This would lead nicely on to the plane-guard/vertrep role - why not share those with the French too? A slightly expanded joint Sqn would be cheaper for both countries.
I've done VERTREP myself in the past, though the resident Merlin Sqn got a bit miffed when I lifted 6 Merlin loads off the back of a T42 in a oner....perhaps a CH47 is overkill though...
We need to think seriously about organic ASAC/AWAC; a RW solution smacks of yesterday's thinking with a STOVL ship and "jobs for the boys" for Yeovil. The answer from a radar horizon and interoperability viewpoint is obviously E2; perhaps a joint sqn with the French? Or, perhaps, bin the E3 and have our own airframes. This would lead nicely on to the plane-guard/vertrep role - why not share those with the French too? A slightly expanded joint Sqn would be cheaper for both countries.
I've done VERTREP myself in the past, though the resident Merlin Sqn got a bit miffed when I lifted 6 Merlin loads off the back of a T42 in a oner....perhaps a CH47 is overkill though...
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Everyone knows what we want, but the problem is getting someone to pay for it.
V22 with Bagger add-on or E2 for AEW/ASAC
F35 for zooming
COD, ideally V22
Merlin for ASW/ASuW/SAR/Vertrep etc
Tanker, like you say ideally S3, because it comes with bonuses such as bombs missiles, torpedoes, DCs and rockets!
What will we get?
Merlin with Bagger add-on for AEW/ASW/SAR/Vertrep
F35 for zooming and tanking
No COD until some situation suddenly makes it politically embarassing and then rapid trials of borrowed US COD.
V22 with Bagger add-on or E2 for AEW/ASAC
F35 for zooming
COD, ideally V22
Merlin for ASW/ASuW/SAR/Vertrep etc
Tanker, like you say ideally S3, because it comes with bonuses such as bombs missiles, torpedoes, DCs and rockets!
What will we get?
Merlin with Bagger add-on for AEW/ASW/SAR/Vertrep
F35 for zooming and tanking
No COD until some situation suddenly makes it politically embarassing and then rapid trials of borrowed US COD.
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Evalu8ter
I like your idea of sharing the SAR sqn with the french, goes towards interoperability and so on. Although they are not the most expensive sqns to run therefore savings will be limited.
As for AEW, sharing E2C with the french is again a good idea, although much harder to implement as it brings along all the command/sovereignty issues : you could imagine a french plane guard onboard QE during a sort of OIF (as no one in the public knows they exist + it is unlikely they will go into harms way), something quite different with a french E2C overhead Irak.
Same applies the other way round of course
I like your idea of sharing the SAR sqn with the french, goes towards interoperability and so on. Although they are not the most expensive sqns to run therefore savings will be limited.
As for AEW, sharing E2C with the french is again a good idea, although much harder to implement as it brings along all the command/sovereignty issues : you could imagine a french plane guard onboard QE during a sort of OIF (as no one in the public knows they exist + it is unlikely they will go into harms way), something quite different with a french E2C overhead Irak.
Same applies the other way round of course
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Come on.
Lets be serious here.
How can two nations realistically share military assets on carriers?
What happens when one is shot down? Or two, or three?
What happens when the carrier goes to a war that only one supports?
No, it is not a "good idea" to share military assets outside of in-theatre declared assets to an operation.
If you cannot rely on it at all times, then it doesn't exist for planning purposes.
Lets be serious here.
How can two nations realistically share military assets on carriers?
What happens when one is shot down? Or two, or three?
What happens when the carrier goes to a war that only one supports?
No, it is not a "good idea" to share military assets outside of in-theatre declared assets to an operation.
If you cannot rely on it at all times, then it doesn't exist for planning purposes.
Tourist,
V22 for COD and ASAC - not a great idea. Cabin/payload/range too small for the former and no extant version exists for the latter. Add in some quite ruinous operating costs and the lack of altitude (albeit better than a compound RW) and V22 is not a viable, affordable option. Perhaps if we were to re-equip CHF with V22 then the arguement would make more sense - and that is seriously out of scope due to cost!
When I suggested a joint Sqn of SAR/E2 with the French it would obviously follow that soveriegn crews/ac would be retained for UK sovereign Ops - the benefit could be had by sharing the fixed support and training costs. Perhaps buying 2-3 COD aircraft (Greyhounds) would be a good way to start?
To my reptile aviator brain it seems an enormous largesse to commission a 65000t ship to have a mere 12-18 F35s on (using a fair % as tankers) with a slack handful of mismatched RW. Is this paper thin capability worth distorting the RN budget over? Not having a pop, just asking a serious question.
V22 for COD and ASAC - not a great idea. Cabin/payload/range too small for the former and no extant version exists for the latter. Add in some quite ruinous operating costs and the lack of altitude (albeit better than a compound RW) and V22 is not a viable, affordable option. Perhaps if we were to re-equip CHF with V22 then the arguement would make more sense - and that is seriously out of scope due to cost!
When I suggested a joint Sqn of SAR/E2 with the French it would obviously follow that soveriegn crews/ac would be retained for UK sovereign Ops - the benefit could be had by sharing the fixed support and training costs. Perhaps buying 2-3 COD aircraft (Greyhounds) would be a good way to start?
To my reptile aviator brain it seems an enormous largesse to commission a 65000t ship to have a mere 12-18 F35s on (using a fair % as tankers) with a slack handful of mismatched RW. Is this paper thin capability worth distorting the RN budget over? Not having a pop, just asking a serious question.
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Actually, V22 Bag is a great idea, which is why there was/is so much interest in it from the USMC possibly using a palletised Bag.
Textron: V-22 may sell to 10-12 foreign countries - Page 2
You also get a cab that can do vertrep and a variety of other roles.
You are right that it is only great if you are richer than Bill Gates though....
E2 has a similar problem. Spectacular cost, without the awesome Bagger radar capabilities.
I agree that buying the US COD is a no brainer though.
As with everything, the Carriers were not bought for "12-18 F35s on (using a fair % as tankers) with a slack handful of mismatched RW"
They were bought for a full CAG, but you get what you can get and work towards a decent capability over time.
ps, if you are going to share cost, why share with the french?! The US are the obvious choice since we are in bed with them on so many projects already. Why give ourselves more political headaches.
On the plus side, they will (eventually) have a great (the Best?) strike aircraft F35, and the best ships helicopter platform, Merlin (when it is servicable) in the world.
All they need to do now is get enough of them, and enough carriers to maintain capability.
Textron: V-22 may sell to 10-12 foreign countries - Page 2
You also get a cab that can do vertrep and a variety of other roles.
You are right that it is only great if you are richer than Bill Gates though....
E2 has a similar problem. Spectacular cost, without the awesome Bagger radar capabilities.
I agree that buying the US COD is a no brainer though.
As with everything, the Carriers were not bought for "12-18 F35s on (using a fair % as tankers) with a slack handful of mismatched RW"
They were bought for a full CAG, but you get what you can get and work towards a decent capability over time.
ps, if you are going to share cost, why share with the french?! The US are the obvious choice since we are in bed with them on so many projects already. Why give ourselves more political headaches.
On the plus side, they will (eventually) have a great (the Best?) strike aircraft F35, and the best ships helicopter platform, Merlin (when it is servicable) in the world.
All they need to do now is get enough of them, and enough carriers to maintain capability.
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ps, if you are going to share cost, why share with the french?! The US are the obvious choice since we are in bed with them on so many projects already. Why give ourselves more political headaches.
Tourist
Interesting observation re V22 for ASaC replacement. Whatever happened to Future Organic AEW? I know that when MoD were recruiting the project team about 11 years ago, they turned down anyone with AEW Mk2 and ASaC Mk7 experience on the grounds it was completely irrelevant to FOAEW. At that time FOAEW was part of the Carrier IPT IIRC. The impression they gave was FOAEW was to be something very different. Definitely not Merlin as the RN had already turned it down for ASaC. Many suspected V22 had been decreed. Then we heard of MASC but nothing seemed to happen.
Interesting observation re V22 for ASaC replacement. Whatever happened to Future Organic AEW? I know that when MoD were recruiting the project team about 11 years ago, they turned down anyone with AEW Mk2 and ASaC Mk7 experience on the grounds it was completely irrelevant to FOAEW. At that time FOAEW was part of the Carrier IPT IIRC. The impression they gave was FOAEW was to be something very different. Definitely not Merlin as the RN had already turned it down for ASaC. Many suspected V22 had been decreed. Then we heard of MASC but nothing seemed to happen.
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I cannot see the F-35 being used as a tanker... We would have to pick up the tab for the FULL development costs of adapting this aircraft for that role..
Merlin for plane guard and other RW roles.
Plane Guard must surely be flown as opposed to being on deck?? We are talking Cat and Trap operations on a crowded flight deck and to me the place for that aircraft is in the air, on station.
I also disagree about sorting out the fast jet issues before worrying about the rest of the wing. This has been raised on numerous threads and so far I have not read anything that shows what aircraft will complement the fast jets
Merlin for plane guard and other RW roles.
Plane Guard must surely be flown as opposed to being on deck?? We are talking Cat and Trap operations on a crowded flight deck and to me the place for that aircraft is in the air, on station.
I also disagree about sorting out the fast jet issues before worrying about the rest of the wing. This has been raised on numerous threads and so far I have not read anything that shows what aircraft will complement the fast jets
