Death in RAF Chinook in Iraq
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Detroit MI
Age: 66
Posts: 1,460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mach Two:
You're right and we seem to agree... My beef is not with what happened, who did what or any other tangible thing. It's the reporting of it by idiots...
500N:
No, my message was not pointed at you but I do hear this "Moral High Ground" bullpoop all the time and I'm getting fed up with it. Politicians can talk all they like about it but they don't ever go where morality is important... They remain politicians...
You're right and we seem to agree... My beef is not with what happened, who did what or any other tangible thing. It's the reporting of it by idiots...
500N:
No, my message was not pointed at you but I do hear this "Moral High Ground" bullpoop all the time and I'm getting fed up with it. Politicians can talk all they like about it but they don't ever go where morality is important... They remain politicians...
High Spirits - hilarious. Keep the day job though, unless it involves comedy writing...
Question is, if we don't adopt a moral standpoint, on what basis are we intervening, and how will our intervention improve our security? As previous posters have noted these are very valid questions given our on-going commitment in Afghanistan and recent involvement in Libya.
I must admit I get very uncomfortable when I see our boys apparently acting as judge, jury and executioner, on the basis of some pretty threadbare evidence (witness Chris Terrill's on-going Channel 5 documentary on the Marines deployment in Afghanistan).
High Spirits will probably now call me a bleeding heart liberal.
Question is, if we don't adopt a moral standpoint, on what basis are we intervening, and how will our intervention improve our security? As previous posters have noted these are very valid questions given our on-going commitment in Afghanistan and recent involvement in Libya.
I must admit I get very uncomfortable when I see our boys apparently acting as judge, jury and executioner, on the basis of some pretty threadbare evidence (witness Chris Terrill's on-going Channel 5 documentary on the Marines deployment in Afghanistan).
High Spirits will probably now call me a bleeding heart liberal.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 59
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The other thing is, we, as in the western societies / NATO intervene quickly in Libya on the basis of protecting civilians - so claiming some high moral ground - but the same people at the top of the civvy Gov'ts seem to not quite doing as much about Syria ???????
I understand Russia is blocking but it does make the UN/NATO/Western Society look a bit hypocritical and "selective".
Whatever happened to the COIN doctrine, it seems the US don't get it always but surely this whole episode,
if true goes against the principles ?
I understand Russia is blocking but it does make the UN/NATO/Western Society look a bit hypocritical and "selective".
Whatever happened to the COIN doctrine, it seems the US don't get it always but surely this whole episode,
if true goes against the principles ?
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Somewhere nice overseas.
Posts: 225
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
500N
Whilst the majority of your last post is your opinion based on a single media report to which you are clearly entitled (
), the last paragraph is a little hysterical. To compare occasional illegal acts of violence in time of war which end in death to state sponsored genocide is a bit much. Year zero or Srebrenica, this is not.
Does anybody else think there is a lot of conjecture, sensationalism and plain guess work going on here?
We don't know if it was one of the unresponsive men who died as no individual was involved in transporting the detainee through the whole process from pick up to his premature, unfortunate and permanent oxygen/brain interface issue.
It's a newspaper report based on events 9 years ago, joining up a few snippets of 'evidence'. Where are these reports, the raw intelligence?
If you want a random conspiracy theory, he died under torture conducted by Saudis under US military control 3 days after arrival. They buried him and to keep their books straight used the unresponsive fella pulled off the Chinook to cover their tracks.
Or he was renditioned and is still in Guantanamo to this day, again the books are straight, and he's still dressed like a B&Q store man.
Etc etc.
Take your pick, why not? It's a better ending, so could sell more papers.
Whilst the majority of your last post is your opinion based on a single media report to which you are clearly entitled (
), the last paragraph is a little hysterical. To compare occasional illegal acts of violence in time of war which end in death to state sponsored genocide is a bit much. Year zero or Srebrenica, this is not.Does anybody else think there is a lot of conjecture, sensationalism and plain guess work going on here?
We don't know if it was one of the unresponsive men who died as no individual was involved in transporting the detainee through the whole process from pick up to his premature, unfortunate and permanent oxygen/brain interface issue.
It's a newspaper report based on events 9 years ago, joining up a few snippets of 'evidence'. Where are these reports, the raw intelligence?
If you want a random conspiracy theory, he died under torture conducted by Saudis under US military control 3 days after arrival. They buried him and to keep their books straight used the unresponsive fella pulled off the Chinook to cover their tracks.
Or he was renditioned and is still in Guantanamo to this day, again the books are straight, and he's still dressed like a B&Q store man.
Etc etc.
Take your pick, why not? It's a better ending, so could sell more papers.
Thread Starter
Whilst the majority of your last post is your opinion based on a single media report to which you are clearly entitled (
), the last paragraph is a little hysterical. To compare occasional illegal acts of violence in time of war which end in death to state sponsored genocide is a bit much. Year zero or Srebrenica, this is not.
), the last paragraph is a little hysterical. To compare occasional illegal acts of violence in time of war which end in death to state sponsored genocide is a bit much. Year zero or Srebrenica, this is not.
I have avoided expressions like moral high ground because there is none in war.
How do you supposedly free people by inflicting the same terror on them that you claim to seek to replace.
The West through the media claim Noble deeds but I struggle to see how it is.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 59
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Scuttled
I'll agree with Racedo on this one and his last post summed it up nicely.
"based on a single media report" it may be but with quotes and as has been shown in the past few years, where smoke exists their is often fire and going on the US's track record, even more so (referring here to the secret camps, not the supposed beating up.)
Hitler started with "occasional illegal acts of violence" conducted by various Nazi groups, brown shirts, black shirts or whoever and look where that ended up. It all starts somewhere in a small way, someone does something, it doesn't get pulled up on, the boundaries are taken out further and on it goes.
I must say that the US certainly seems to be investigating and prosecuting acts AND the media being informed about it.
Anyway, good discussion
I'll agree with Racedo on this one and his last post summed it up nicely.
"based on a single media report" it may be but with quotes and as has been shown in the past few years, where smoke exists their is often fire and going on the US's track record, even more so (referring here to the secret camps, not the supposed beating up.)
Hitler started with "occasional illegal acts of violence" conducted by various Nazi groups, brown shirts, black shirts or whoever and look where that ended up. It all starts somewhere in a small way, someone does something, it doesn't get pulled up on, the boundaries are taken out further and on it goes.
I must say that the US certainly seems to be investigating and prosecuting acts AND the media being informed about it.
Anyway, good discussion
I understand Russia is blocking but it does make the UN/NATO/Western Society look a bit hypocritical and "selective".
Let's talk of Rwanda, Zimbabwe, Syria, Somalia, Yemen, Dafur.....where do you want to draw the line at examples.
It is not just the NATO, the UK, the USA.....it is all of the prosperous countries.
It all depends upon whose Ox is getting gored when we decide to stick our beaks into someone else's business. Granted....sometimes we should be involved but then we do so at risk of many bad things happening....and too many times we turn a blind eye or limit ourselves to some public hand wringing and great big Crocodile Tears.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 59
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SASless
Agree that it is more than just US/UK/Nato, I just couldn't be bothered typing a few more - Australia included. Our Foreign Minister is a good one for grand standing !
Your other examples are good as well and I think the UN always hides in shame when Rwanda is mentioned.
Agree that it is more than just US/UK/Nato, I just couldn't be bothered typing a few more - Australia included. Our Foreign Minister is a good one for grand standing !
Your other examples are good as well and I think the UN always hides in shame when Rwanda is mentioned.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: at home
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dead Pan,
Not a bleeding heart liberal, just incredibly guillable. I can believe that a man died in a helicopter as a result of restraining and a bit of rough treatment at the hands of captors. That's an accidental consequence of war(and the shaky peace that followed it) not a deliberate act.
But. This story has been embellished to the point where it lacks credibility in the eyes of those people who have been out there. The print media, remember them? They are the ones who sanctioned the hacking of a dead teenagers phone to sell their grubby story. If you think that the more adult papers don't engage in this type of act then think again. This is all very convenient to lash out at an organisation whose work sometimes involves secrecy (for good reason)at the time of the leveson enquiry.
I believe no more than about 20% of it.
Not a bleeding heart liberal, just incredibly guillable. I can believe that a man died in a helicopter as a result of restraining and a bit of rough treatment at the hands of captors. That's an accidental consequence of war(and the shaky peace that followed it) not a deliberate act.
But. This story has been embellished to the point where it lacks credibility in the eyes of those people who have been out there. The print media, remember them? They are the ones who sanctioned the hacking of a dead teenagers phone to sell their grubby story. If you think that the more adult papers don't engage in this type of act then think again. This is all very convenient to lash out at an organisation whose work sometimes involves secrecy (for good reason)at the time of the leveson enquiry.
I believe no more than about 20% of it.
Whilst not commenting on this reported incident, I will add two notes:
Torture and Rough Handling. During the 12 years of the Malayan Emergency, time and again it was shown that 'third degree methods' were counter-productive in garnering actionable intelligence. Exploiting the shock of capture and then conveying them in isolation and silence to a Police Interrogation Centre was much, much more successful. Interrogation involve offering the detainee good food, cigarettes, a bath, fresh clothing etc. In a contemporary CIA report, incredulity was expressed about the lack of torture. I interview former intel officers and former insurgents - both groups categorically agreed that rough handling and torture were counter-productive. Why have we appeared to have regressed?
RAFP investigation. Several years ago I was subject to a long and totally inept investigation after a piece of equipment in my care was stolen. The Specialist Police Wing plods focused on my behaviour rather than trying to identify the thief and recover the sensitive piece of kit. The questioning was abysmal as was the handling of evidence (the crime scene was not secured). My solicitor had to guide their questioning and procedures. There was high-level interfernce in the process and interviews were suspended and never concluded and it took a specialist Solicitor and advocate to lift the cloud over me. I was never charged but felt that like a criminal - and treated as thus. Compared with MDP investigations that I have been involved in on a professional basis, MDP were very good - RAFP investigation was very poor.
Torture and Rough Handling. During the 12 years of the Malayan Emergency, time and again it was shown that 'third degree methods' were counter-productive in garnering actionable intelligence. Exploiting the shock of capture and then conveying them in isolation and silence to a Police Interrogation Centre was much, much more successful. Interrogation involve offering the detainee good food, cigarettes, a bath, fresh clothing etc. In a contemporary CIA report, incredulity was expressed about the lack of torture. I interview former intel officers and former insurgents - both groups categorically agreed that rough handling and torture were counter-productive. Why have we appeared to have regressed?
RAFP investigation. Several years ago I was subject to a long and totally inept investigation after a piece of equipment in my care was stolen. The Specialist Police Wing plods focused on my behaviour rather than trying to identify the thief and recover the sensitive piece of kit. The questioning was abysmal as was the handling of evidence (the crime scene was not secured). My solicitor had to guide their questioning and procedures. There was high-level interfernce in the process and interviews were suspended and never concluded and it took a specialist Solicitor and advocate to lift the cloud over me. I was never charged but felt that like a criminal - and treated as thus. Compared with MDP investigations that I have been involved in on a professional basis, MDP were very good - RAFP investigation was very poor.
The point for me is that this story is one about yet another suspicious death of an individual in military custody, albeit in this instance unusual in that RAF personnel may have played some role. The follow-up investigation appears to have been cursory at best, and certainly nothing appears to have changed as a consequence. Nine years later we are still hearing reports from Afghanistan of abuses of prisoners and civilians by NATO personnel, some involving British forces.
We've got to get our act together and make it crystal clear to those involved on ops as to the bounds of their behaviour also that any such abuses will be thoroughly (and openly) investigated and prosecuted under UK or local laws. If we don't we might as well pack up and leave since we are only making the situation worse for all involved. Such incidents are pure recruiting gold for the likes of Al Qaeda.
We've got to get our act together and make it crystal clear to those involved on ops as to the bounds of their behaviour also that any such abuses will be thoroughly (and openly) investigated and prosecuted under UK or local laws. If we don't we might as well pack up and leave since we are only making the situation worse for all involved. Such incidents are pure recruiting gold for the likes of Al Qaeda.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: at home
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dead pan,
Just as places like Iraq are difficult to fight in, they are also difficult to investigate in. No standing police force. No autopsy, no forensics. Cab not impounded. No evidence of rendition and torture(which as a previous poster has stated, proves counterproductive in exploiting information)The RAFP or whoever investigated this would be on a hiding to nothing. Blaming them is futile, as is blaming the Ministry. Sometimes less than competent yes, deliberately obstructive, sorry NO.
Journos are famous for making stuff up to get their story to the top of the news agenda. Another example, landlord of murder victim Jo Yeates gets his life ruined by the Daily Whinge. Why? Because he looked a bit eccentric and shifty.
Evidence?????????
Just as places like Iraq are difficult to fight in, they are also difficult to investigate in. No standing police force. No autopsy, no forensics. Cab not impounded. No evidence of rendition and torture(which as a previous poster has stated, proves counterproductive in exploiting information)The RAFP or whoever investigated this would be on a hiding to nothing. Blaming them is futile, as is blaming the Ministry. Sometimes less than competent yes, deliberately obstructive, sorry NO.
Journos are famous for making stuff up to get their story to the top of the news agenda. Another example, landlord of murder victim Jo Yeates gets his life ruined by the Daily Whinge. Why? Because he looked a bit eccentric and shifty.
Evidence?????????
We've got to get our act together and make it crystal clear to those involved on ops as to the bounds of their behaviour also that any such abuses will be thoroughly (and openly) investigated and prosecuted under UK or local laws. If we don't we might as well pack up and leave since we are only making the situation worse for all involved. Such incidents are pure recruiting gold for the likes of Al Qaeda.
Pen a Cartoon of Mohammed with a bomb in his hat....and millions of the buggers come out of the Wood Work as Suicide Bombers!
Keep dreaming!
One does the best one can....and to suggest our Lads and Lasses are anything less than dedicated in their duty is an insult. When excesses occur...and they have and shall do so again....as no group of folk are perfect particularly under the stress our current generation of war fighters are.....they are found and dealt with.
War is a messy business....one cannot change that.
Using the rationale that "killing" ones opponents only engenders their Next of Kin and neighbors to continue the fight only holds to a very limited point. Once they see opposition is futile, hopeless, and bound for failure....they will lay down their Arms and submit....or desist in their hostile ways.
The one real exception to that is when the Opposition is actually in the Right....and their opponents are in the Wrong. Principle trumps Practice in that regard.
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Hampton, UK
Age: 45
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airborne Aircrew,
I admire your defence of your trade in order to suggest that the media are using a lack of understanding of what you do in war conditions to justify claims they cannot support.
However, when such claims suggest such gross abuses of public confidence in the armed forces and all that can be offered by those who should know what really happened is a string of wishy washy non-specific counter-claims or excuses it makes one think one of the following is happening:
someone knows what really happens, its bad, so they want to deny or mislead as much as possible in the hope the public never find out
someone knows something happened but have now realised they should have investigated more at the time, so they want to deny or mislead as much as possible in the hope the public never find out
someone knows what, if anything, happened and that it was innocent and justifiable, yet for some reason they have decided not to defend the reputation of the armed forces by sharing sufficient to make the journalist write the story off as boring and un-interesting
Until positive action is taken by those who represent you to the nation you serve then the media have every right to question the wishy washy details they get. It will also steadily increase the view that "our military aren't quite as innocent as they make out" which I've developed over the last 10 years.
Additionally, the general but non-specific views of "we were at war so don't question us" from members of the armed forces which sites like this it could be suggested promote could well be connected with the decrease in respect the nation has for its armed force.
I admire your defence of your trade in order to suggest that the media are using a lack of understanding of what you do in war conditions to justify claims they cannot support.
However, when such claims suggest such gross abuses of public confidence in the armed forces and all that can be offered by those who should know what really happened is a string of wishy washy non-specific counter-claims or excuses it makes one think one of the following is happening:
someone knows what really happens, its bad, so they want to deny or mislead as much as possible in the hope the public never find out
someone knows something happened but have now realised they should have investigated more at the time, so they want to deny or mislead as much as possible in the hope the public never find out
someone knows what, if anything, happened and that it was innocent and justifiable, yet for some reason they have decided not to defend the reputation of the armed forces by sharing sufficient to make the journalist write the story off as boring and un-interesting
Until positive action is taken by those who represent you to the nation you serve then the media have every right to question the wishy washy details they get. It will also steadily increase the view that "our military aren't quite as innocent as they make out" which I've developed over the last 10 years.
Additionally, the general but non-specific views of "we were at war so don't question us" from members of the armed forces which sites like this it could be suggested promote could well be connected with the decrease in respect the nation has for its armed force.
Using the rationale that "killing" ones opponents only engenders their Next of Kin and neighbors to continue the fight only holds to a very limited point. Once they see opposition is futile, hopeless, and bound for failure....they will lay down their Arms and submit....or desist in their hostile ways.
As for my earlier somewhat ill-judged comment regarding offering resistance, what I should of said is that I nor probably most of the detainees involved have had the benefit of the training previously described.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: at home
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr Womble,
You are right, the media do have every right to question what we do....but put it into context. It occurs just after hostilities have ceased. There are no investigators on scene. The MOD cannot be expected to know what has happened.
So the media have every right to question. Just as the MOD have every right to throw their hands up and say 'we don't know'. The press, on the other hand have no right to make up gossip in the absence of evidence. Their job is to report the truth, not to make up their own false reality based on an agenda.
On the other hand you conspiracist clowns think that life is easy and a policeman exists at every street corner ready to kick ass and take names. Why? Because in your world, to an extent that is true. Go and stand on a street corner in Sangin and preach human rights and lawyer sh!t to the Taliban. See how long it takes before they remove your head with a large saw.
You are right, the media do have every right to question what we do....but put it into context. It occurs just after hostilities have ceased. There are no investigators on scene. The MOD cannot be expected to know what has happened.
So the media have every right to question. Just as the MOD have every right to throw their hands up and say 'we don't know'. The press, on the other hand have no right to make up gossip in the absence of evidence. Their job is to report the truth, not to make up their own false reality based on an agenda.
On the other hand you conspiracist clowns think that life is easy and a policeman exists at every street corner ready to kick ass and take names. Why? Because in your world, to an extent that is true. Go and stand on a street corner in Sangin and preach human rights and lawyer sh!t to the Taliban. See how long it takes before they remove your head with a large saw.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 59
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"The press, on the other hand have no right to make up gossip in the absence of evidence. Their job is to report the truth, not to make up their own false reality based on an agenda."
Well said.
That is the biggest problem with the media today across everything, they don't report the news, they try to create it. And if they don't, they run a "story" loosely based on some facts so that the people they originally wanted to provide information have to respond.
And in some ways, the media itself wants to be the story.
Well said.
That is the biggest problem with the media today across everything, they don't report the news, they try to create it. And if they don't, they run a "story" loosely based on some facts so that the people they originally wanted to provide information have to respond.
And in some ways, the media itself wants to be the story.