Bomber Boys- BBC 1.
Cunning Artificer
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Just a quick return to the Dresden controversy, this is the brief summary of a research paper I once submitted on the subject. . .
If you look at a satellite view of Dresden you will see that the enormous railway junction is, somewhat unusually for such facilities, slap bang in the middle of the city. You can call it carpet bombing of a purely civilian target if you wish to incriminate those responsible, or you can research it yourself and determine if Dresden was in fact a legitimate military target. The facts, when you look them up properly, support the latter conclusion.
Since 1945, Dresden has been used to beat the RAF about its conduct of "terror bombing" during WW2. Many sources claim that Dresden was merely a quiet peaceable little medieval town going about its business and waiting for the war to end. In fact it was a major industrial centre and rail junction. As it was stated in the Dresden City Council Yearbook of 1942 - “Anyone who knows Dresden only as a cultural city would be very surprised to be made aware of the extensive and versatile activity that make Dresden one of the foremost industrial locations of the Reich”.
There were 127 factories in the Dresden municipal area, most of which were converted to war production from their former peace time use. Some examples: Zeiss turned out bomb sights, u-boat periscopes and time fuses. A former typewriter and sewing machine factory made guns and ammunition and a catering machine factory switched to producing torpedoes for the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe. Arts and crafts workshops in the old town were making tail assemblies for V-1s. Other factories were turning out searchlights, aircraft components and field communications equipment. From the Dresden Chamber of Commerce in 1944 - "The work rhythm of Dresden is determined by the needs of our army." (The famous “Dresden” China was, as it always has been, made 12 mile away in Meisen).
During the Yalta conference in February 1945, at the Chiefs of Staff meeting, General Antonov specifically asked that the Dresden railway junction be bombed. Records held at the Public Records office in Kew confirm this request. General Antonov wanted Dresden attacked because it was a German base of operations against Marshall Koniev`s left flank that stood in the way of his advance into Germany. The troop reinforcement and transport centre shifted 28 troop trains a day through the marshalling yards. This is also confirmed in intelligence reports held in the Public Records office in Kew. Besides the physical contribution to the Eastern front, Dresden was a communications centre through which most telephone and telegraph lines connecting High Command to the southern flank of the Eastern front passed.
Finally, and most convincingly, captured German High Command documents from Berlin in 1945 state that "Dresden is to be fortified as a military strongpoint, to be held at all costs." British wartime records that were only recently de-classified reveal that this was known to the British and Russian commanders, as the orders to the German local defence commander were intercepted and deciphered by Ultra at Bletchley Park.
There were 127 factories in the Dresden municipal area, most of which were converted to war production from their former peace time use. Some examples: Zeiss turned out bomb sights, u-boat periscopes and time fuses. A former typewriter and sewing machine factory made guns and ammunition and a catering machine factory switched to producing torpedoes for the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe. Arts and crafts workshops in the old town were making tail assemblies for V-1s. Other factories were turning out searchlights, aircraft components and field communications equipment. From the Dresden Chamber of Commerce in 1944 - "The work rhythm of Dresden is determined by the needs of our army." (The famous “Dresden” China was, as it always has been, made 12 mile away in Meisen).
During the Yalta conference in February 1945, at the Chiefs of Staff meeting, General Antonov specifically asked that the Dresden railway junction be bombed. Records held at the Public Records office in Kew confirm this request. General Antonov wanted Dresden attacked because it was a German base of operations against Marshall Koniev`s left flank that stood in the way of his advance into Germany. The troop reinforcement and transport centre shifted 28 troop trains a day through the marshalling yards. This is also confirmed in intelligence reports held in the Public Records office in Kew. Besides the physical contribution to the Eastern front, Dresden was a communications centre through which most telephone and telegraph lines connecting High Command to the southern flank of the Eastern front passed.
Finally, and most convincingly, captured German High Command documents from Berlin in 1945 state that "Dresden is to be fortified as a military strongpoint, to be held at all costs." British wartime records that were only recently de-classified reveal that this was known to the British and Russian commanders, as the orders to the German local defence commander were intercepted and deciphered by Ultra at Bletchley Park.
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langleybaston
Your description is exactly like my Grand mother described it,
shelters, bombings etc. She was also shot up by a Stuka in Croydon, it saw her and my Aunt, came down low but luckily put the bullets either side of them.
Blacksheep
My Grand parents said that although Dresden was not nice, they
just pointed out all the houses around where they lived - Croydon
that were flattened by bombers or V1's as well as the rest of the
City of London.
.
Your description is exactly like my Grand mother described it,
shelters, bombings etc. She was also shot up by a Stuka in Croydon, it saw her and my Aunt, came down low but luckily put the bullets either side of them.
Blacksheep
My Grand parents said that although Dresden was not nice, they
just pointed out all the houses around where they lived - Croydon
that were flattened by bombers or V1's as well as the rest of the
City of London.
.
Lancaster on fire
I was going to post the story behind a painting I had admired in an exhibition at Shaftesbury some 15 years ago,but the artist Ron Homes, the pilot of the Lancaster, tells it so eloquently himself.
Google Ronald Homes artist and read it for yourselves. Click on 'A night to remember'.
I've met Ron a few times at exhibitions, particularly as my wife has exhibited with him, and he is a typical man of that generation,quiet and unassuming. I first saw the painting before he had a website and had to drag the story out of him.
Amazing that after WW2 he went back to art school. He kept in touch with all of his crew for the rest of their lives, I believe the first member to pass away was about the time we met Ron in the late 90s.
Google Ronald Homes artist and read it for yourselves. Click on 'A night to remember'.
I've met Ron a few times at exhibitions, particularly as my wife has exhibited with him, and he is a typical man of that generation,quiet and unassuming. I first saw the painting before he had a website and had to drag the story out of him.
Amazing that after WW2 he went back to art school. He kept in touch with all of his crew for the rest of their lives, I believe the first member to pass away was about the time we met Ron in the late 90s.
Last edited by Brian 48nav; 6th Feb 2012 at 16:14. Reason: More info
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
TTN, nawty boy, now go and sit at the back of the class.
Ah, the joys of automatic airplot. Imagine if you will the aircraft performing a number of corkscrews until hopefully slipping back towards target or home. The Navigator plotting a wind vector from the API to establish a DR position. Then trying to spot something for a pinpoint or construct an MPP from a solitary G-line.
The evasive manoeuvres would have played havok with the compasses.
Final observation though, at the end he said of AFG Collateral damage is not acceptable. In my Cold War talks I conclude Collateral damage was a bonus.
The evasive manoeuvres would have played havok with the compasses.
Final observation though, at the end he said of AFG Collateral damage is not acceptable. In my Cold War talks I conclude Collateral damage was a bonus.
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Brian
Thanks for that. An inspiring read.
Re "Originally Posted by Chugalug2
A generation brought up on GPS in mobile phones can have little concept of the challenge that night navigation for Main Force was."
Most have little idea of navigation full stop, let alone night navigation.
If a nice female computer voice isn't telling them when and which was to turn,
they get lost ! LOL
Thanks for that. An inspiring read.
Re "Originally Posted by Chugalug2
A generation brought up on GPS in mobile phones can have little concept of the challenge that night navigation for Main Force was."
Most have little idea of navigation full stop, let alone night navigation.
If a nice female computer voice isn't telling them when and which was to turn,
they get lost ! LOL
TTN, nawty boy, now go and sit at the back of the class.
Earlier in the thread, bnt compared Ewan MacGregor's performance as equivalent to overshooting Berlin by 20 miles. Quite frankly I am sure that earlier on, before the introduction of the Pathfinder force equipped with Oboe and H2s, navigation errors such as this would have been commonplace. Having practised "night limited" navigation in the Victor with nothing but a sextant as a navaid, I have on occasions managed not a lot better than this in a very stable platform with nobody trying to shoot me down. Factor in lower level turbulence, flak and night fighter avoidance then such errors after several hours of night flying over hostile territory do not seem at all remarkable. I have the highest regard for the skills of that generation of navigators and think they achieved some amazing results with the equipment available.
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the "show of force" is a neat way of saying "we warned you we were here, so what follows next is of your own choosing".
On the subject of Dresden, having recently visited the city and read the book 'DRESDEN, 13 February 1945' by Frederick Taylor I believe that I am right in saying that Dresden was never on the target list until the Soviets (as stated last night on the programme) asked for it to be brought into the list to ease pressure on the Eastern Front by stemming the flow of reinforcements eastwards through Dresden railhead. (By the way, all the Gothic architecture destroyed has been rebuilt by the communist East Germans - not the Russians who told their new puppet regime that they had got what they deserved on 13 Feb 45!).
Foldie
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well done BBC
The trouble with all these Forums is no one ever seems happy what ever you do. I for one was moved to tears- Those guys were so brave it begs belief. I went to Brooklands 3 weeks ago and met a Hampden/ wellington Pilot he ws in his 90s what a humbling experience i could have sat all day and chatted to him i just wanted to know what it was like. For me i thought the brothers were fantastic although i am a bit perplexed. A DC3 probably flies 120kts and if Ewan was 60 seconds early surely he would have been out by 2 miles???- I know my time at 6 FTS was nearly 30 years ago but surely I'm not going mad ??
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Blimey, post 50, and so far no-one's brought up the old chestnut
I am sure that earlier on, before the introduction of the Pathfinder force equipped with Oboe and H2s, navigation errors such as this would have been commonplace.
We must remember though that their night nav was wholly different from the V-Force. The V-force was a 24hr a day mission whereas Bomber Command then could largely chose the time and place. Early on they had to pick clear moonlit nights looking for shine on water features. Only with the advent of electronic aides and sky marking could they bomb through cloud and navigate on dark nights.
Lightening the mood a tad - Foldie, did you try the Sophienkeller? After visiting the stunning restoration of the Dresden Frauenkirche (which is a must), a good session in the S-keller is to be recommended!
See http://www.sophienkeller-dresden.de/...SK-ZH_2012.pdf
See http://www.sophienkeller-dresden.de/...SK-ZH_2012.pdf
Death Cruiser Flight Crew
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In his own write:
"Remember that these crews, shining youth on the threshold of life, lived under circumstances of intolerable strain. They were in fact - and they knew it - faced with the virtual certainty of death, probably in one of its least pleasant forms. They knew, well enough, that they owed their circumstances to the stupidity, negligence and selfishness of the older generation who since 1918 had done little to avert another war and even less to prepare for it."
ARTHUR HARRIS
Part of his introduction to Enemy Coast Ahead.
ARTHUR HARRIS
Part of his introduction to Enemy Coast Ahead.
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Did I hear right? Did Ewan MacGregor actually say that (at 120 kts) one minute early would equate to a 20 nm error!!!
He did you know, and nobody picked him up on it! And he of a Scottish education too!
Foldie
He did you know, and nobody picked him up on it! And he of a Scottish education too!
Foldie
And he of a Scottish education too!
Did I hear right? Did Ewan MacGregor actually say that (at 120 kts) one minute early would equate to a 20 nm error!!!
on TV.
Bloody brave blokes, did what they were told (as we should) by people that thought they were doing the best for our country (as they should). Too late to second guess them. Just enjoy the series.
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Did I hear right? Did Ewan MacGregor actually say that (at 120 kts) one minute early would equate to a 20 nm error!!!
He did you know, and nobody picked him up on it! And he of a Scottish education too!
Foldie
He did you know, and nobody picked him up on it! And he of a Scottish education too!
Foldie
Listen up there at the front!
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Tirpitz and 617
According to 617 Squadron Operations from 1943 - 1945. There is no doubt that she was sunk by 617 Sqdn - on 11th/23rd September and on 28th October she was hit again, this time with 4 tallboys. Tony Iveson was involved in all three raids. He had two hits.
Tony Iveson joined the RAF in 1939(?) and was a sergeant pilot in 616 and 92 Squadrons during the BoB. He reached the rank of S/L whilst serving with 617.
I was of an age when I could realize what was being done to us here on the ground in the war. All I 'wanted' then was the RAF to give something back the Germans would remember. There was enough in abundance and I shall be forever grateful to these guys in the air. ONE THIRD of a whole air force to be lost as a volunteer takes some thinking about.
That Bomber Command memorial in Green Park will say it all I am sure.
Tony Iveson joined the RAF in 1939(?) and was a sergeant pilot in 616 and 92 Squadrons during the BoB. He reached the rank of S/L whilst serving with 617.
I was of an age when I could realize what was being done to us here on the ground in the war. All I 'wanted' then was the RAF to give something back the Germans would remember. There was enough in abundance and I shall be forever grateful to these guys in the air. ONE THIRD of a whole air force to be lost as a volunteer takes some thinking about.
That Bomber Command memorial in Green Park will say it all I am sure.
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As I understood it, he said a 1 minute error on that leg length equated to a 20 mile error at Berlin.
Beags: acknowledged fact! Anyway, I thought the definition of an oxymoron was a flying instructor in Oxfordshire! Yah, Boo, Sucks to you!!
Foldie
You can be SUCH a bitch, Foldie....
Hope you enjoyed Dresden - a few years back I spent many a day there working at Elbeflugzeugwerke.
Hope you enjoyed Dresden - a few years back I spent many a day there working at Elbeflugzeugwerke.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
According to 617 Squadron Operations from 1943 - 1945. There is no doubt that she was sunk by 617 Sqdn
M R-D
