Thank you "Engines"
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May I offer a couple of thoughts.
This has to be an open forum. That means we must always welcome anyone who wants to chip in. Anyone.
If those who come in are less well informed than others (and I include myself as a 'less-well-informed'), then they have a great chance to learn stuff. I do all the time.
If people come in with a poor attitude then that's sad, their problem and they can just be ignored.
If people come in and are abusive, well, we have moderators and also the 'ignore' option. Returning abuse is always, in my view, a bad move. That extends to inter-service banter, which always has the potential to move from 'edgy' to 'plain poor' - again, personal responsibility is the answer here.
As far as 'walts/wannabes/wierdos' go, I think we have to go for option 1 - they have their view, and we must allow them their space. If they are 'single-issue' and by honest argument, we can convince them that there's another point of view to consider, we will have done them a service. If we can't, well, at least we tried.
As long as all our posts are open, informative honest and courteous, we should be able to create the right tone and content. If they aren't we won't.
Best Regards as ever, to all those doing it at the sharp end.
Engines
This has to be an open forum. That means we must always welcome anyone who wants to chip in. Anyone.
If those who come in are less well informed than others (and I include myself as a 'less-well-informed'), then they have a great chance to learn stuff. I do all the time.
If people come in with a poor attitude then that's sad, their problem and they can just be ignored.
If people come in and are abusive, well, we have moderators and also the 'ignore' option. Returning abuse is always, in my view, a bad move. That extends to inter-service banter, which always has the potential to move from 'edgy' to 'plain poor' - again, personal responsibility is the answer here.
As far as 'walts/wannabes/wierdos' go, I think we have to go for option 1 - they have their view, and we must allow them their space. If they are 'single-issue' and by honest argument, we can convince them that there's another point of view to consider, we will have done them a service. If we can't, well, at least we tried.
As long as all our posts are open, informative honest and courteous, we should be able to create the right tone and content. If they aren't we won't.
Best Regards as ever, to all those doing it at the sharp end.
Engines
Very well said Engines.
Anyway, it is not only the military aircrew forum that this happens. Over on the "Bizjets, Ag flying, GA forum" we occasionally get posts from some wierdo-wannabe called "Tourist" who clearly has never flown a bizjet or ag-plane in his life, and finds it funny if a young girl is badly disfigured by walking into a prop:
http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-fl...usky-prop.html
We put up with him though.
Anyway, it is not only the military aircrew forum that this happens. Over on the "Bizjets, Ag flying, GA forum" we occasionally get posts from some wierdo-wannabe called "Tourist" who clearly has never flown a bizjet or ag-plane in his life, and finds it funny if a young girl is badly disfigured by walking into a prop:
http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-fl...usky-prop.html
We put up with him though.
Last edited by Trim Stab; 14th Jan 2012 at 10:24.
If we didn't have none military personnel, we wouldn't get threads like this http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...d-but-how.html
Quite facinating and informative.
Quite facinating and informative.
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I would add if you banned the
you would also include in that those that come on here asking legitimate questions about joining the services. Oh, and those of them already serving 
'walts/wannabes/wierdos'
I can see where Tourist is coming from, and have to say I agree with him.
Most of the contributors to this site seem to be ex-mil, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. The problem seems to arise when somebody asks a genuine question about military aviation and gets the standard answers:
"I remember when I was on the VC10 and..."
"Don't know, but on the Lightning.."
"I've never been to Afghanistan, but in Belize we used to.."
I'm not for a second saying that these old/bold chaps should stop posting here as they seem to have a wealth of experience and great dits, but may it be an idea to start an "Ex military aircrew" thread? That would keep everyone happy and stop a few complaints.
Just a thought
ps - you can tell the spotters when they refer to the Tiffy - nobody in the RAF has ever called it that!
Most of the contributors to this site seem to be ex-mil, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. The problem seems to arise when somebody asks a genuine question about military aviation and gets the standard answers:
"I remember when I was on the VC10 and..."
"Don't know, but on the Lightning.."
"I've never been to Afghanistan, but in Belize we used to.."
I'm not for a second saying that these old/bold chaps should stop posting here as they seem to have a wealth of experience and great dits, but may it be an idea to start an "Ex military aircrew" thread? That would keep everyone happy and stop a few complaints.
Just a thought
ps - you can tell the spotters when they refer to the Tiffy - nobody in the RAF has ever called it that!
LAL,
And then you would lose excelent input like BEagle's answers on the new tanker a couple of months ago - just one example. You should be looing forward to the day you step out of the RAF and find yourself banned from your favourite forum as well. Because, overnight, your whole personality, knowledge and opinions will suddenly have changed and you would no longer be relevant
I'd also be interested to hear how you think the mods are going to police this. Unless we all submit a public statement declaring exactly who we are and what out credentials are, how will they know whom to admit and whom to expel. Do all you serving guys want to revel your identities to the world?
Finally, military flying didn't suddenly start 20 years ago, you know. But I do take your point about relevance to particular threads and promise to try harder in future. Of course, if there is relevant stuff from the past, I shall feel free to post appropriately.
Courtney
And then you would lose excelent input like BEagle's answers on the new tanker a couple of months ago - just one example. You should be looing forward to the day you step out of the RAF and find yourself banned from your favourite forum as well. Because, overnight, your whole personality, knowledge and opinions will suddenly have changed and you would no longer be relevant
I'd also be interested to hear how you think the mods are going to police this. Unless we all submit a public statement declaring exactly who we are and what out credentials are, how will they know whom to admit and whom to expel. Do all you serving guys want to revel your identities to the world?
Finally, military flying didn't suddenly start 20 years ago, you know. But I do take your point about relevance to particular threads and promise to try harder in future. Of course, if there is relevant stuff from the past, I shall feel free to post appropriately.
Courtney
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Finally, military flying didn't suddenly start 20 years ago, you know. But I do take your point about relevance to particular threads and promise to try harder in future. Of course, if there is relevant stuff from the past, I shall feel free to post appropriately.
Then it should be still relevant, most of the fleets are older than that
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A few points.
Firstly, people are putting words in my mouth.
At no stage did I advocate banning anyone. Check if you don't believe me.
I also do not see how banning would work.
Secondly, I realise the incongruity of finding that the person who I acclaimed as a paragon of infallibility disagrees with me on this subject, but hey, an easy argument is dull.
My post was more of a moan about the unfortunate state of the Military Forum, and simply some praise for one of the few on here who genuinely impart knowledge.
I don't know how to fix it, but I know it is broken or at least unwell.
If you go on the civvy forums, it is immediately obvious that the ratio of professional aircrew/microsoft heros is better than 80/20, whereas on here I would guess at 60/20/10/10 ex-mil/mil/wannabies/wierdos.
There is a tipping point into unusability, and I think we are near it.
Firstly, people are putting words in my mouth.
At no stage did I advocate banning anyone. Check if you don't believe me.
I also do not see how banning would work.
Secondly, I realise the incongruity of finding that the person who I acclaimed as a paragon of infallibility disagrees with me on this subject, but hey, an easy argument is dull
.My post was more of a moan about the unfortunate state of the Military Forum, and simply some praise for one of the few on here who genuinely impart knowledge.
I don't know how to fix it, but I know it is broken or at least unwell.
If you go on the civvy forums, it is immediately obvious that the ratio of professional aircrew/microsoft heros is better than 80/20, whereas on here I would guess at 60/20/10/10 ex-mil/mil/wannabies/wierdos.
There is a tipping point into unusability, and I think we are near it.
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Tourist and others,
I'm actually quite optimistic about this forum, but agree that it can be harder work than all of us would like.
I'd just like to say a very heart felt thank you to those who have said such kind (but really not deserved) words. It's nice to be appreciated, but the people who should be appreciated, and given the utmost courtesy, are those men and women who are serving our country right now in whatever capacity, in whatever location.
I'd like to suggest that this thread could close down very soon, to avoid further embarrassment (to me especially!) and to allow the many really good contributors to this forum to resume normal business - hopefully, with humility and honesty
Best regards as ever to you all,
Engines
I'm actually quite optimistic about this forum, but agree that it can be harder work than all of us would like.
I'd just like to say a very heart felt thank you to those who have said such kind (but really not deserved) words. It's nice to be appreciated, but the people who should be appreciated, and given the utmost courtesy, are those men and women who are serving our country right now in whatever capacity, in whatever location.
I'd like to suggest that this thread could close down very soon, to avoid further embarrassment (to me especially!) and to allow the many really good contributors to this forum to resume normal business - hopefully, with humility and honesty
Best regards as ever to you all,
Engines
So at what point do you move from Mil to ex-mil? (and thus your opinion becomes less valuable?)
I retired a few years ago after 35 years as a regular pilot, but I'm now VR(T) and share an AEF/UAS crewroom with an eclectic mix of regulars/airline pilots/industry; the banter is as cutting as ever and there is always an invigorating discussion on wide-ranging issues, many of them very current. I probably don't have the specific knowledge I had when I was active, but I still keep in touch.
On PPRuNe, I think most of us have enough nouce to detect an errant post and allow one's eyes to drift to the next.
i.e. it's nothing to do with the background of the poster; it's whether you feel it adds to the discussion.
I retired a few years ago after 35 years as a regular pilot, but I'm now VR(T) and share an AEF/UAS crewroom with an eclectic mix of regulars/airline pilots/industry; the banter is as cutting as ever and there is always an invigorating discussion on wide-ranging issues, many of them very current. I probably don't have the specific knowledge I had when I was active, but I still keep in touch.
On PPRuNe, I think most of us have enough nouce to detect an errant post and allow one's eyes to drift to the next.
i.e. it's nothing to do with the background of the poster; it's whether you feel it adds to the discussion.
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Ken Scott - The problem with introducing a password locked forum is that such a move could then lead to some folk thinking that it is 'secure', perhaps leading to folk being a little more free, easy and forthcoming with certain information than they ought to. As it is some of the information folk have posted upon these hallowed pages has been a little close to the mark with regards OSA compliance.
I'm sure you don't need to be told that the security of a website such as this may be sufficient to stop the inner workings of some dull airline's crew rest policy leaking out but is totally insufficient to protect possible 'loose tounges', set free by a illusion of sanctuary.
The publicly-accessible nature of the current military aircrew forum generally keeps it 'honest'.
I'm sure you don't need to be told that the security of a website such as this may be sufficient to stop the inner workings of some dull airline's crew rest policy leaking out but is totally insufficient to protect possible 'loose tounges', set free by a illusion of sanctuary.
The publicly-accessible nature of the current military aircrew forum generally keeps it 'honest'.
My post was more of a moan about the unfortunate state of the Military Forum...
"Too many moaners and whingers, Walts and spotters. A lot of the humour has gone and people are much ruder than they used to be...."
I'd probably never have found out the truth about Operation PINK RABBIT if it hadn't been for your amusing revelation, Courtney! Finding your weblog was even better!
Nice and sunny here today - almost good enough to consider getting out http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ful-weber.html ! A typically harmless PPRuNe thread of the old school.
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BEagle
"A lot of the humour has gone and people are much ruder than they used to be....""
Funnily enough, I agree that there is little humour on here, however I bemoan the lack of rudeness and swearing on here!
This is supposed to resemble a sqn crewroom, and is instead more like a stuffy catholic school staffroom.
My wife is an avid Mumsnet reader. Mumsnet is probably the largest, most used forum in the country and is a bastion of radio four listening, middle class mums including government ministers, etc. It is considered a major opinion setter amongst women for polititians, all the candidates for Prime Minister at the last election went on the forum to be interviewed and it is frequently hilarious and is absolutley filthy! There is at least one @nal sex thread or something about f1sting each week and everyone copes, yet on here, the forum for aviation warriors swearing and harsh banter is banned.
That shows how out of touch this forum is from real military or even normal life. We all know that we come back from a deployment with every second word begining with F or C, so lets grow up and stop being prissy.
The moderators, if indeed we must have them, should be young, serving military personnel to get the correct tone.
How many young Military 1st/2nd tour guys post on here? Can anybody think of one who posts regularly?
If we don't get them involved, it will only get worse.
The status qou is not really a solution.
"A lot of the humour has gone and people are much ruder than they used to be....""
Funnily enough, I agree that there is little humour on here, however I bemoan the lack of rudeness and swearing on here!
This is supposed to resemble a sqn crewroom, and is instead more like a stuffy catholic school staffroom.
My wife is an avid Mumsnet reader. Mumsnet is probably the largest, most used forum in the country and is a bastion of radio four listening, middle class mums including government ministers, etc. It is considered a major opinion setter amongst women for polititians, all the candidates for Prime Minister at the last election went on the forum to be interviewed and it is frequently hilarious and is absolutley filthy! There is at least one @nal sex thread or something about f1sting each week and everyone copes, yet on here, the forum for aviation warriors swearing and harsh banter is banned.
That shows how out of touch this forum is from real military or even normal life. We all know that we come back from a deployment with every second word begining with F or C, so lets grow up and stop being prissy.
The moderators, if indeed we must have them, should be young, serving military personnel to get the correct tone.
How many young Military 1st/2nd tour guys post on here? Can anybody think of one who posts regularly?
If we don't get them involved, it will only get worse.
The status qou is not really a solution.
Last edited by Tourist; 14th Jan 2012 at 15:28.
Perhaps, like the airline forums, there should be some form of password to get in?
"There is at least one @nal sex thread or something about f1sting each week and everyone copes....."
MightyGem, your post reminds me of the sage words of General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett:
"You know, if there's one thing I've learnt from being in the Army, it's never ignore a pooh-pooh. I knew a Major, who got pooh-poohed, made the mistake of ignoring the pooh-pooh. He pooh-poohed it! Fatal error! Because it turned out all along that the soldier who pooh-poohed him had been pooh-poohing a lot of other officers - who pooh-poohed their pooh-poohs. In the end, we had to disband the regiment. Morale totally destroyed... by pooh-pooh!"
Perhaps, like the airline forums, there should be some form of password to get in?
Avoid imitations
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Obviously, in the interest of fairness, all these whinging ex-civvy, military folk should stop posting anywhere else on PPRuNE but here.... 
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I think that so long as you fall into the categories laid down then there is no problem. Some people clearly don't. There are two areas for concern. Spotters and observers, or whatever the crabs are calling them this week. I know it changed from navigators to WSOs for, errr, some really good reasons but it's probably changed again.
Notwithstanding this re-branding exercise neither spotters or WSOgators are allowed here.
The ROE for the forum is clearly laid out. Those that fly (not fly in) the hardware or the backroom boys. Nowhere does it mention watching while someone else flies, and the rear seat is not a back room. Ops support, IPT wallahs, MoD warriors and our dear spanner wielding grease chimps are all more than welcome as 'backroom' types.
I do accept that some naviWSOs do steer Preds around a bit so they are, quite rightly elevated to the position of being allowed a say.
Not my rules, just the ones that are on the opening page. Just saying.
If I were an observer or an aircrewman for that matter I would complain or write a letter.
Notwithstanding this re-branding exercise neither spotters or WSOgators are allowed here.
The ROE for the forum is clearly laid out. Those that fly (not fly in) the hardware or the backroom boys. Nowhere does it mention watching while someone else flies, and the rear seat is not a back room. Ops support, IPT wallahs, MoD warriors and our dear spanner wielding grease chimps are all more than welcome as 'backroom' types.
I do accept that some naviWSOs do steer Preds around a bit so they are, quite rightly elevated to the position of being allowed a say.
Not my rules, just the ones that are on the opening page. Just saying.
If I were an observer or an aircrewman for that matter I would complain or write a letter.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Surely on an internet forum like this, all posts that agree with your point of view are made by serious, professional like-minded individuals, and anybody disagreeing is a walt, wannabe or Flightsim adolescent?
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Not all gamers are adolecents, I have an Xbox and had my half life service carried out several years ago 