It's May 1941, it's night, you have to land, but how?

[jamesinnewcastle]

Spurlash

Your comments and files etc will take me some time to analyse off line but it is really important to know what the weather conditions were


Trim Stab

Sadly you can't see the other wing so they can't help, but your suggestion will be in the list of 'possibles'.


aw ditor

I've looked through the full ORBs and the Pilots handbook but they have no info to help.

You mentioned Cranwell - the pilot was a special 'N' Pilot - anyone know what that means? A quote about the Pilot

"Raymond Cruickshank DFC and Bar, a Cranwell graduate and a special 'N' Pilot had flown on the first Stirling raid as a navigator."


Albert Driver

The aircraft in question nearly killed me when it crashed. OK that is slightly dramatic, more correct to say that my mother to be was aged 11 and asleep in a small cottage when N6012 eventually came to a halt against a tree at the bottom of the garden of the cottage that she had been evacuated to.

The idea of a trip in a light aircraft sounds good - just as long as I get a parachute and two reserve pilots! I wonder if they would want to fly in the pitch dark though as that is what I would like. Then I would have to find a farmer who wouldn't mind a dozen goosenecks burning in his field.


rvusa

Someone else has told me that goosenecks give a good impression of height, possibly better than electric lights. Is that because the flicker can't be seen from far away but only when you get closer? What distance do they start to flicker do you think, it would make my 3D animations more realistic.

[Spurlash2]

Anyone know what the initials E of J mean?

Error of Judgement.

[jamesinnewcastle]

Spurlash

Fits perfectly! Nice one

James

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

"co" is the Station Commander, "oc" is the Squadron Commander, if memory serves.
I agree the flaps appear up.

See below for a good brief (8 page) summary of 'black hole' phenomena.

http://www.cwu.edu/~aviation/faculty_files/HFAM Night Flying Risks.pdf

note on page 4 that the cessna over flat terrain also crashes at 3 miles.

[Albert Driver]

Goosenecks are just big candles so they flicker according to wind speed like candles. They give quite a good light which can be seen well outside the normal circuit in good visibility but they can give off smoke which can reduce visibility depending on whether the wind is from the runway side or the dead side of the line of flares. And of course, if the general visibility is reduced by the weather conditions they are dimmed, as are all lights and visual clues.

The suggestion that you take a trip to do a few circuits at a flying club was a serious one. The parts of this study where you seem to struggle at the moment, James, are in understanding what a circuit is for and what visual clues a pilot is looking out for at each stage in the circuit - which are essentially the same day or night. A few daylight circuits with an instructor explaining what he's looking for would give you a lot more insight, which you would carry back to the study. It doesn't need to be night flying. I have indeed done night circuits using goosenecks in a single-engine light aircraft but I spent so much time thinking where to go if the engine failed (I was inexperienced with very low hours at the time), any benefit from the exercise was largely lost!

[jamesinnewcastle]

Cliffnemo

Thank for the take off procedure and the Icing video link, it certainly seems that the Stirling fits a lot of the criteria mentioned. One for the list of 'probables'.

Thanks for the landing drill picture - can't make all the writing though. Why would the rear gunner want to make more light to the rear?


Hipper

Thanks for the circuit drawing, I can't quite make it all out though sadly.

Anyway this might be the point at which I ask you all for a better idea of what the circuit may have actually been like in terms of its shape and dimensions. I'll make up a few examples as non-pilot guesses and you can all critique it if you would.

I'll do that later as I want to finish typing!


Mechta

Great Pic - unbelieveable


onetrack

The crash of N6012 involved 28 tons of metal landing at 100+ mph but I suspect that my mother was relatively safe in fact as the cottage was surrounded by a dense ring of trees. While they were pretty much directly under the Flight Path it might have taken a really steep dive to have hit the cottage.


Momoe

Flaps at 30 percent caused a buzzer to sound in the cockpit - and 30 percent is mentioned a lot in the manuals. The photos are up now and the flaps look fully in to me but I stand to be corrected.


Shackman

Thanks for re-reading my post. I understand the desire of people reading the thread to get to the more interesting parts and go off at a tangent but I want to do that by going through the 'no problems landing' first.

You reply is great - what I'd like to do is to capture it graphically because I don't have the experience of 'turning onto the base leg' and because I am making an amateur documentary about the incident which is for me, my mother and all the people who have helped me so far including the villagers at Dry Drayton, especially the Cricket Club who seem undisturbed at my eyeing up their cricket pitch which I believe is on the field that N6012 slid across in 1941.

I believe that there would have been a Pundit light as my 90 year old witness remembers 'a light that was always flashing' (Have I got that right - didn't they flash the Morse code for the airfield identification?)

There was a COI but the AHB doesn't have a copy - they told me that most were destroyed to 'make more room' - sigh if only scanners and PCs were about earlier. My one isn't in AIR5 at TNA either.

OK this link is a landing simulation I made a long while ago - it's not good, it's just a trial and it describes a rectangular circuit (told you I was no pilot) and the props aren't going round. But the land and the hangers are Dry Drayton and Oakington from 1946. Also I have made your view look directly at the runway all the time and there are spotlights on Oakington and Dry Drayton. It's best to watch it in a dark room of course to let your eyes adjust.

You Tube

But with help from the forum I'd like to make two much better ones - one at night and one during the day. This may take some time of course.

I have loads more questions but I'll finish off commenting on your responses first.


101history

Hi - oh yes please - I would love a copy. So interested in the voice procedures too. I found an old BBC sound effects track of the conversation in a control tower during a landing - really amazing to hear the crew asking if the Chance light was on and the Pilot not quite hearing what was being said, at one point a voice says 'He's up there somewhere'....




Thanks All

[jamesinnewcastle]

Hi All

You are posting faster than I can respond - great :-)


Fox3wheresmybanana

That's great I think that you have put the last piece of that puzzle in place



Albert Driver

After searching for ages I eventually found film of a gooseneck, a still from that film below - not a night scene sadly but film can't capture what the eye sees well so I'm not too worried.

You are right about having a flight - I do know someone who flies a little but I suffer a little from vertigo, a lot more from cowardice and my sense of self preservation really gets in the way at times :-)

[jamesinnewcastle]

All

I have been researching this event for about 9 months now - I have found out an awful lot of stuff and realised that looking at any one aspect in any depth spins you off into another fascinating area of research.

I don't find it enough personally to know that they 'landed at night' or that they 'navigated home' or that there were 'some lights' or 'some night fighters around'. Each of those areas and many more including the lives of the villagers at Dry Drayton and each of the buildings holds much more depth for me.

While I have found out great chunks of information and know about many of the topics and have many of the books, hundreds of pictures, you guys are providing the 'glue' that binds those chunks together and opening my eyes sometimes to things I can't see in front of my face.

The sum of all this information has to go somewhere - hence the documentary. I can reproduce some of these images too so that the story becomes more real.

But thanks to you all for your assistance - I hope you are getting a lot out of it too!

James

[Courtney Mil]

James,

A fascinating thread that may yet offer more. When it's all over and you have found your answers (hopefully), any chance you can let us know what what you've found?

Courtney

[jamesinnewcastle]

Courtney Mil

When I do finally get it done, and that's not soon, I have the following plan:

1. Anyone who has helped can have a copy of the final DVD. There may be two, one for anoraks and one for the general public! One just a subset of the other.
2. My research will be made public- as if anyone would want it (minus personal information)
3. I'd like to list the means by which I dug up the information and also what type of information has been/can be unearthed as a help/guide to anyone trying to do the same sort of thing..
4. I've promised to give a talk at Dry Drayton

If anyone wants to be put 'on the list' please IM me your details - an email address would do.

When it's done then it's on to the next project - my Uncle was killed in a Lancaster off the Dutch coast...........

James

[jamesinnewcastle]

Fox3wheresmybanana

The link is broken - I'll try again later


All

Just for fun - this is my test animation of a Gooseneck.'flare'. It's just a quick set up to see what I could do, as it turns out the flame should be much floppier!

Stirling Flypast Gooseneck (simulation) - YouTube

James

[Momoe]

Fascinating, my grandfather was a nav in 100 Grp so it's in my blood too.
Although the aircraft is in relatively large pieces, there is still major disruption to the wings and no indication of fire.
Although the aircraft was returning and wouldn't have been fuel heavy the minimum fuel load would be sufficient to create a large fire.
The engines were air cooled radials which are located in front of the fuel tanks, which in the event of a crash gives four large potential ignition sources, not to mention electrical sparking from broken wiring, friction sparks, etc.

Just wondering if fuel starvation has been eliminated, the other thing that I found of interest is that the crash report mentions that one wing was low, if you're on finals - you're looking for a stable flight down the glide path to the runway; Unless you've got crosswinds this makes your corrections in the vertical plane rather than vertical and horizonal to simplify matters. Old aviation adage, height with throttle, speed with stick, so they would have adjusted the glide path sink rate with throttle,
If the pilot knew he was close to the ground, why was the aircraft banked, it must have been significant enough to be picked up in the accident report so I'm thinking >10degs. Is the wreckage trail heading known?

[Green Flash]

james

An utterley fascinating thread, thank you and thanks to all the Ppruners. With reference to

My research will be made public- as if anyone would want it

I think I speak for many when I say we can't !*&?@y wait to see the results!

[jamesinnewcastle]

101 History

I've just noticed the last line of your post - it was in a different font so I missed it but that is very interesting, thanks.

Another piece of procedure.


James

[jamesinnewcastle]

Momoe

There is part of the 765c that I left off, it may answer your question. I'll just include all of the rest of the form - it isn't much.

Unit: 7 Squadron
Command: Bomber
Date of incident: 3.5.41
Place of Incident: Dry Drayton. Cambs
Nature of Flight: Operational Night
Pilot: R.Cruickshank DFC (and Bar)

Rank: Flt Lt
Number: 33364


TYPE OF AIRFRAME AND ENGINE and extent of damage:

Airframe Type Stirling
Mark or series Mk 1
RAF No N6012
Total hours run 46.30
Extent of damage W


Engines:

PO Hercules Mark XI
P1 Hercules Mark XI
S1 Hercules Mark XI
SO (indecipherable) Mark XI

Total hours run

50.30
49.25
51.00
51.0

Date last installed In Airframe
12.2.41
12.2.41
12.2.41
indecipherable

Extent of damage
W
W
W
W

Did fire occur in air? No
On ground? Yes P1 Engine

The aircraft was virtually brand new, but that's not necessarily a good thing because it may not have shaken out all its teething problems.

While the report notes very little fire, and as you say the pics show no visible sign of burning, all the tanks were self-sealing and so the others may still have had fuel in. On the other hand all the engines should have had copious amounts of fuel pumping to them so why so little fire? But if he were very low on fuel would he have not told the Tower so that a crash party could be made ready?

His companion aircraft some 15 mins behind him did make it back OK even with 15 mins more flight time. Lots of reports of Stirlings that guzzled fuel so N6012 may have had overly large consumption or other problems leading to excessive fuel use. Possibly running out of fuel before the other aircraft.

OK the bomb load is given in the ORB - the target is known - so is it possible to work out the likelihood of coming back on fumes?

Comments welcome!


Green Flash

I'm getting loads of good stuff from this forum so the data is growing all the time!


James



James

[jamesinnewcastle]

All

As promised earlier here are some photos of the crash site from the air so you can get a better idea of the situation. The crash site is marked with the cross. First a 1945 picture which shows the center line of the only runway at the time (though there are three by 1945). It shows that he was pretty well on track, but you tell me - I'm no Pilot, is that a good place to be when three miles out? Does that suggest that he could see the runway lights? I suppose it depends if the light was just the goosenecks or a monster chance light. What if he was just very good at doing a 180 turn and navigating in the dark by instruments?

[jamesinnewcastle]

This next one shows a close up of the field again from a 1945 aerial photo but the place hasn't changed much. I used Google earth for it as they have the handy measuring tool.

Remember the 765c report that the aircraft continued for 200yds? The line I've drawn is the only possible direction that could be the path described I think. That is 171 yards. The arrow marked Oakington FP is exactly along the flight path so at 3 miles out he was just 190 or so yards to the left of the centre line.

The aircraft was one wing down - I think that that may have been the Port (?) wing fouling on the trees to the left of the gap that you can see in the bottom left of the field. Was that why only 'one wing down' because there were no other trees on the starboard side? Does 'down' mean dropped down in flight or torn off?

I have to say at this point that I am not going to come to any conclusion myself until all the data is safely gathered in!

[jamesinnewcastle]

Finally - this an aerial photo taken by the Luftwaffe in Aug 1940 - as close as I have managed to get to a photo that validates what the fields actually looked like - about 8 months before the crash. It's very murky because I have blown it up hugely from the original.

You can see the gap and the trees to the left more clearly though. It would have been better if I hadn't put the arrow in the way, but the arrow does show how he could have clipped trees on just the Port side.

[jamesinnewcastle]

Momoe

To answer more of your question now that you know the shape of the field. Look at the tree line in the crash photos. There is a distant tree line which is probably at the far end of the field. The closest tree line probably looking sort of N to NE. But I'll let you decide if they fit.

I don't know where the other parts of the aircraft are - the eye witnesses don't remember either. As the photos have been taken of the recovery you may not be able to trust the positions of any of the wreckage - it may have been moved there before the picture was taken.

James

[Hipper]

To get yourself in the pilot's shoes to some degree you could, if you don't already, use Microsoft's Flight Simulator. You would need a yoke and pedals ideally.