Another SAM
Thread Starter
Another SAM
I'm sure this is all above board, but let's see where this get us on conspiracy theories:
Finland police find Patriot missiles | News24
Finland police find Patriot missiles | News24
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 59
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"but let's see where this get us on conspiracy theories:"
I'm going to get some meds before this kicks off.
But where do you get 69 Patriot Missiles without the US
or some Gov't knowing ?
Or is this just a big blow up of a legal shipment ?
.
I'm going to get some meds before this kicks off.
But where do you get 69 Patriot Missiles without the US
or some Gov't knowing ?
Or is this just a big blow up of a legal shipment ?
.
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Cloud9
Posts: 365
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Clearly, these potent weapons were being deployed to counter the threat posed by a scarlet-clad old man in a sleigh, drawn by reindeer, whose airborne appearance in those high latitudes is imminent.
HB
HB
Join Date: May 2000
Location: UK and where I'm sent!
Posts: 519
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wonder who the ship was operated by. It may be British flagged, but that doesn't tell us much. Pretty mixed cargo, which suggests a small-time operation. Eyes peeled for anything more on this.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Malkin Tower
Posts: 847
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Intersting
The ships AIS appears to be turned off so can't check where she's been
Local press report
Missile shipment confirmed aboard detained vessel | News | YLE Uutiset | yle.fi
"
A British cargo vessel detained at Kotka harbour has been found to be carrying a shipment of American-made Patriot missiles. According to information received by YLE, the missile shipment originated in Germany and is destined for South Korea. Onboard the ship are 69 of the missiles with their explosive warheads and propelling charges.
The National Bureau of Investigation confirmed Wednesday afternoon that the missiles are on-board the ship.
Officials stopped the M/S Thor Liberty last week as its cargo of explosives had been stored incorrectly. The ship is carrying 160 tonnes of the explosive nitroguanidine. The material is in 25 kg packages. Because of the characteristics of nitroguanidine, the material should be carried in shipping containers.
In the course in inspection, it was aslo found that the cargo included a shipment of military missiles.
An investigation was launched and it was determined that while not contraband, the proper transit permits for the shipment are inadequate or missing.
The incident is now being handled by Finnish Customs as a possible violation of laws regulating the imports of military materials. Customs has requested the Defense Forces for assistance in impounding the missiles until their origin and destination can be confirmed."
The ships AIS appears to be turned off so can't check where she's been
Local press report
Missile shipment confirmed aboard detained vessel | News | YLE Uutiset | yle.fi
"
A British cargo vessel detained at Kotka harbour has been found to be carrying a shipment of American-made Patriot missiles. According to information received by YLE, the missile shipment originated in Germany and is destined for South Korea. Onboard the ship are 69 of the missiles with their explosive warheads and propelling charges.
The National Bureau of Investigation confirmed Wednesday afternoon that the missiles are on-board the ship.
Officials stopped the M/S Thor Liberty last week as its cargo of explosives had been stored incorrectly. The ship is carrying 160 tonnes of the explosive nitroguanidine. The material is in 25 kg packages. Because of the characteristics of nitroguanidine, the material should be carried in shipping containers.
In the course in inspection, it was aslo found that the cargo included a shipment of military missiles.
An investigation was launched and it was determined that while not contraband, the proper transit permits for the shipment are inadequate or missing.
The incident is now being handled by Finnish Customs as a possible violation of laws regulating the imports of military materials. Customs has requested the Defense Forces for assistance in impounding the missiles until their origin and destination can be confirmed."
Last edited by jamesdevice; 21st Dec 2011 at 15:48.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Malkin Tower
Posts: 847
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Seems to be operated by Thorco Shipping THOR LIBERTY | Thorco Shipping A/S
But Dania Marine appear to also have a stake in her Dania Marine - Ships
I know nothing about either
But Dania Marine appear to also have a stake in her Dania Marine - Ships
I know nothing about either
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 59
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was just going to post that they might be for South Korea then read the post above.
I understand that sometimes shipping goods like this in plain vessels is one way of avoiding attention but it makes you wonder what goes on if they don't have the right paperwork ? It will be interesting what the US Gov't has to say.
And of course SAMXXV !
I understand that sometimes shipping goods like this in plain vessels is one way of avoiding attention but it makes you wonder what goes on if they don't have the right paperwork ? It will be interesting what the US Gov't has to say.
And of course SAMXXV !
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,081
Received 2,942 Likes
on
1,253 Posts
Probably to be deployed around China to prevent the imminent arrival of their new Stealthy Drone from Iran 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Malkin Tower
Posts: 847
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nitroguanididine
Koppers - Nitroguanidine
Nitroguanidine is a highly versatile intermediate used in the manufacture of a range of high value organic chemicals.
Nitroguanidine, also known as Picrite, was initially developed as a propellent for various munitions. However, its versatility as an intermediate in Organic Chemical synthesis means that these chemical applications now dwarf its traditional uses.
NITROGUANIDINE (PICRITE), WETTED WITH NOT LESS THAN 20% WATER | CAMEO Chemicals | NOAA
General Description
Nitroguanidine is shipped as a slurry or wet mass of pale yellow crystals. If it should dry out it can explode due to shock, heat, flame, or friction. The primary hazard is blast where the entire load can explode instantaneously and not from flying projectiles and fragments. Under prolonged exposure to fire or heat they can explode.
Reactivity Profile
Nitroalkanes, such as NITROGUANIDINE, range from slight to strong oxidizing agents. If mixed with reducing agents, including hydrides, sulfides and nitrides, they may begin a vigorous reaction that culminates in a detonation. Nitroalkanes are milder oxidizing agents, but still react violently with reducing agents at higher temperature and pressures. Nitroalkanes react with inorganic bases to form explosive salts. The presence of metal oxides increases the thermal sensitivity of nitroalkanes. Nitroalkanes with more than one nitro group are generally explosive. Nitroalkanes are insoluble in water. Flammable/combustible material. May be ignited by heat, sparks or flames. DRIED OUT material may explode if exposed to heat, flame, friction or shock; Treat as an explosive. Mercury and silver complex salts of nitroguanidine are very impact sensitiv
Firefighting
CARGO FIRE: DO NOT fight fire when fire reaches cargo! Cargo may EXPLODE! Stop all traffic and clear the area for at least 800 meters (1/2 mile) in all directions and let burn. Do not move cargo or vehicle if cargo has been exposed to heat.
Shipping (from Canadian regulations)
Schedule 3 - Transport Canada
NITROGUANIDINE, dry or wetted with less than 20 per cent water, by mass
Class 1.1D UN0282 (that puts it in the same explosion risk as black powder / gun powder)
NITROGUANIDINE, WETTED with not less than 20 per cent water, by mass
Class 4.1 UN1336 (= flammable solid)
Putting a shipment 160 tonnes of that stuff on a ship with a load of missiles is daft
Drawing attention to it by misdeclaring / misdocumenting is insane
Koppers - Nitroguanidine
Nitroguanidine is a highly versatile intermediate used in the manufacture of a range of high value organic chemicals.
Nitroguanidine, also known as Picrite, was initially developed as a propellent for various munitions. However, its versatility as an intermediate in Organic Chemical synthesis means that these chemical applications now dwarf its traditional uses.
NITROGUANIDINE (PICRITE), WETTED WITH NOT LESS THAN 20% WATER | CAMEO Chemicals | NOAA
General Description
Nitroguanidine is shipped as a slurry or wet mass of pale yellow crystals. If it should dry out it can explode due to shock, heat, flame, or friction. The primary hazard is blast where the entire load can explode instantaneously and not from flying projectiles and fragments. Under prolonged exposure to fire or heat they can explode.
Reactivity Profile
Nitroalkanes, such as NITROGUANIDINE, range from slight to strong oxidizing agents. If mixed with reducing agents, including hydrides, sulfides and nitrides, they may begin a vigorous reaction that culminates in a detonation. Nitroalkanes are milder oxidizing agents, but still react violently with reducing agents at higher temperature and pressures. Nitroalkanes react with inorganic bases to form explosive salts. The presence of metal oxides increases the thermal sensitivity of nitroalkanes. Nitroalkanes with more than one nitro group are generally explosive. Nitroalkanes are insoluble in water. Flammable/combustible material. May be ignited by heat, sparks or flames. DRIED OUT material may explode if exposed to heat, flame, friction or shock; Treat as an explosive. Mercury and silver complex salts of nitroguanidine are very impact sensitiv
Firefighting
CARGO FIRE: DO NOT fight fire when fire reaches cargo! Cargo may EXPLODE! Stop all traffic and clear the area for at least 800 meters (1/2 mile) in all directions and let burn. Do not move cargo or vehicle if cargo has been exposed to heat.
Shipping (from Canadian regulations)
Schedule 3 - Transport Canada
NITROGUANIDINE, dry or wetted with less than 20 per cent water, by mass
Class 1.1D UN0282 (that puts it in the same explosion risk as black powder / gun powder)
NITROGUANIDINE, WETTED with not less than 20 per cent water, by mass
Class 4.1 UN1336 (= flammable solid)
Putting a shipment 160 tonnes of that stuff on a ship with a load of missiles is daft
Drawing attention to it by misdeclaring / misdocumenting is insane
Last edited by jamesdevice; 21st Dec 2011 at 16:35.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Malkin Tower
Posts: 847
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Something not right here
According to the BBC
"Dock workers became suspicious after finding explosives poorly stored on open pallets, and the missiles were then found in containers marked "fireworks"."
Its been a good few years since I had to put chemicals or explosives onto ships, but as far as I can remember explosive chemicals like this usually were shipped on open pallets to prevent the risk of a packing container become pressurised and producing shrapnel in the event of a detonation
Anyone got a copy of the IMO/IMCO handbook that they can check current regulations?
Somehow this sounds like a put-up job. Not helped by CBS incorrectly reporting the chemical as "picric acid" - also an explosive, and more sensitive
According to the BBC
"Dock workers became suspicious after finding explosives poorly stored on open pallets, and the missiles were then found in containers marked "fireworks"."
Its been a good few years since I had to put chemicals or explosives onto ships, but as far as I can remember explosive chemicals like this usually were shipped on open pallets to prevent the risk of a packing container become pressurised and producing shrapnel in the event of a detonation
Anyone got a copy of the IMO/IMCO handbook that they can check current regulations?
Somehow this sounds like a put-up job. Not helped by CBS incorrectly reporting the chemical as "picric acid" - also an explosive, and more sensitive
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 59
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
jamesdevice
Agree re the picric acid reporting and with open pallet, however just how open,
after all, don't want it to get wet.
Something does sound fishy.
.
Agree re the picric acid reporting and with open pallet, however just how open,
after all, don't want it to get wet.
Something does sound fishy.
.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Malkin Tower
Posts: 847
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
we used to ship stuff like that as deck cargo, on pallets with waterproofed cardboard sides and loose fitting cardboard lids or flaps. Just taped down lightly, no banding or strapping. In the event of detonation nothing solid to cause harm. Even the pallets were compressed cardboard, not wood.. Chemcials themselves would be in PVC double layer sacks. Once on deck the stuff would have been tarpaulined
I presume current regulations are similar.
Picric acid was a strange one. You had to ship in small cardboard kegs, with loose fitting lids that could blow off.. You could only part fill each keg - around 20% max - to allow an expansion space in the event of detonation.
On another tangent, the timing of this "find" seems very strange, with this announcement on Friday:
Raytheon Awarded $685.7 Million for New Patriot Systems for Taiwan - PR Newswire - sacbee.com
"TEWKSBURY, Mass., Dec. 16, 2011 /PRNewswire/ -- Raytheon Company (NYSE: RTN) has received a $685.7 million Foreign Military Sales (FMS) contract for additional new fire units of the combat-proven Patriot Air and Missile Defense System for Taiwan"
I presume current regulations are similar.
Picric acid was a strange one. You had to ship in small cardboard kegs, with loose fitting lids that could blow off.. You could only part fill each keg - around 20% max - to allow an expansion space in the event of detonation.
On another tangent, the timing of this "find" seems very strange, with this announcement on Friday:
Raytheon Awarded $685.7 Million for New Patriot Systems for Taiwan - PR Newswire - sacbee.com
"TEWKSBURY, Mass., Dec. 16, 2011 /PRNewswire/ -- Raytheon Company (NYSE: RTN) has received a $685.7 million Foreign Military Sales (FMS) contract for additional new fire units of the combat-proven Patriot Air and Missile Defense System for Taiwan"
Last edited by jamesdevice; 21st Dec 2011 at 23:28.
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: The Chemistry Lab
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
from Associated Press today
HELSINKI (AP) — A shipment of 69 surface-to-air missiles impounded by Finnish authorities was a legitimate delivery from Germany to South Korea, a German official said Thursday.
The announcement came after Finnish authorities seized the Patriot missiles and 160 tons of explosives on a British-registered cargo ship and detained two Ukrainian crew members on suspicion of violating weapons export laws.
Police said the missiles didn't have the right transit documents and the explosive picric acid wasn't properly stored on the M/S Thor Liberty, which docked in Kotka, southern Finland, on Dec. 15.
A spokesman for Germany's Defense Ministry said the missiles were an official shipment that was fully declared and had all necessary clearings from German authorities.
"Those patriot guided missiles are from the Bundeswehr's stocks and have been shipped to South Korea" according to an intergovernmental treaty, he said, declining to be named in line with government policy.
He said no explosives were part of the shipment and he didn't have any information on that part of the impounded cargo.
Finnish officials said the explosives were destined for China. Markku Koskinen, the director of traffic operations at the port of Kotka, said they were deficiently packed in wooden boxes on open pallets and would be moved to metal containers in line with rules on the maritime transport of explosives.
"We will do that as soon as the customs inspectors allow us to," Koskinen told The Associated Press. "Otherwise, the shipment of explosives was legitimate and can continue on its way to China as soon as it's safely packed."
HELSINKI (AP) — A shipment of 69 surface-to-air missiles impounded by Finnish authorities was a legitimate delivery from Germany to South Korea, a German official said Thursday.
The announcement came after Finnish authorities seized the Patriot missiles and 160 tons of explosives on a British-registered cargo ship and detained two Ukrainian crew members on suspicion of violating weapons export laws.
Police said the missiles didn't have the right transit documents and the explosive picric acid wasn't properly stored on the M/S Thor Liberty, which docked in Kotka, southern Finland, on Dec. 15.
A spokesman for Germany's Defense Ministry said the missiles were an official shipment that was fully declared and had all necessary clearings from German authorities.
"Those patriot guided missiles are from the Bundeswehr's stocks and have been shipped to South Korea" according to an intergovernmental treaty, he said, declining to be named in line with government policy.
He said no explosives were part of the shipment and he didn't have any information on that part of the impounded cargo.
Finnish officials said the explosives were destined for China. Markku Koskinen, the director of traffic operations at the port of Kotka, said they were deficiently packed in wooden boxes on open pallets and would be moved to metal containers in line with rules on the maritime transport of explosives.
"We will do that as soon as the customs inspectors allow us to," Koskinen told The Associated Press. "Otherwise, the shipment of explosives was legitimate and can continue on its way to China as soon as it's safely packed."
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
German Customs yesterday claimed that it was a legal shipment of Patriot to South Korea.
According to them the ship left Germany with the correct paperwork.
Why however this shipment is now declared as "fireworks" is still under discussion.
Thomas
According to them the ship left Germany with the correct paperwork.
Why however this shipment is now declared as "fireworks" is still under discussion.
Thomas
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: The Chemistry Lab
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
murkier and murkier
from the Finish newspaper Helsingin Sanomat
"The paperwork of the freight vessel Thor Liberty, which was found to have explosives and missiles on board when it docked at Kotka Harbour, is in order, said the National Bureau of Investigation (NBI).
On Wednesday, Minister of the Interior Paivi Rasanen Christ. Dem.) was still saying that the bill of lading claimed that the containers, which were loaded with Patriot ground-to-air missiles, had been labelled as fireworks.
However, it came out later that this was a linguistic misunderstanding involving the words “rocket” and “missile”.
“There was no attempt in the documents to mislead in any way”, says Detective Superintendent Timi Virtanen of the National Bureau of Investigation (NBI)."
The rest of the article is interesting as it appears the ship had to find a safe harbour to escape the heavy storms. However they forgot to tell the pilot what was onboard...
Helsingin Sanomat - International Edition - Home
from the Finish newspaper Helsingin Sanomat
"The paperwork of the freight vessel Thor Liberty, which was found to have explosives and missiles on board when it docked at Kotka Harbour, is in order, said the National Bureau of Investigation (NBI).
On Wednesday, Minister of the Interior Paivi Rasanen Christ. Dem.) was still saying that the bill of lading claimed that the containers, which were loaded with Patriot ground-to-air missiles, had been labelled as fireworks.
However, it came out later that this was a linguistic misunderstanding involving the words “rocket” and “missile”.
“There was no attempt in the documents to mislead in any way”, says Detective Superintendent Timi Virtanen of the National Bureau of Investigation (NBI)."
The rest of the article is interesting as it appears the ship had to find a safe harbour to escape the heavy storms. However they forgot to tell the pilot what was onboard...
Helsingin Sanomat - International Edition - Home
So, jamesdevice banned, then COCL2 appears. They could be brothers 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Canada
Age: 63
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Nitroguanidine is manufactured from guanine, a naturally-occurring substance typically found in the excrement of bats and birds (guano.)"
So the ****e has already begun.
So the ****e has already begun.
Suggestions are they being sold by Israeli's to China............ now if that is true I would expect things to get heated.
US will know who they supplied Patriots to pretty easily so doubt this is going to stay quiet for very long.
US will know who they supplied Patriots to pretty easily so doubt this is going to stay quiet for very long.