Military Personnel Not as Fexible as MOD Civil Servants
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I personally find this encouraging. When the next fireperson's strike comes around, we will see Civil Servants manning the Green Goddesses instead of sailors, soldiers and airmen. 
Junglydaz,
For what it is worth, the Green Goddesses have all been sold off/scrapped - come the next fireperson's strike, coverage will be provided by companies such as Serco under contract to HMG......
For what it is worth, the Green Goddesses have all been sold off/scrapped - come the next fireperson's strike, coverage will be provided by companies such as Serco under contract to HMG......
When the next fireperson's strike comes around, we will see Civil Servants manning the Green Goddesses instead of sailors, soldiers and airmen.
Some of us were formally trained but probably a political decision not to deploy CS. (We also maintained the GGs). 32 years since I attended a fire while on MoD duty. 37 since the last sudden death. Age means I wouldn't be much use now.
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Connect this thread with the news that we might be doing passport duty next week. I propose a firm "f$ck off" would show them just how inflexible we can be when you push us. Using us to cover strikers who are protesting about the same issues which we have to just suck up is outrageous.
Using us to cover strikers who are protesting about the same issues which we have to just suck up is outrageous.
Then again, one of the same CS did let slip that during the early days of TELIC, they were getting Ł120/day overtime to do a duty officer slot which military personnel did as routine. That was back in 2003, god knows what the rate would be now .... probably why there is only 1 CS who is on a duty roster - the rest disappear around 1600 each day despite constantly reminding us of their 'officer status'. Looks like we're about to get done over by the CS once again. Remind me, which bit of Defence is the tail and which is the dog?
Melchett (and others)
I think I've demonstrated many times what side I'm on. The CS needs to buck up and stop dumbing down, although I think it has probably reached rock bottom. I'm probably wrong on that last one.
But, to be fair to any CS with that attitude about "big bucks", I refer you to my example about Requirements Managers and MILSMs - which is what most CS in AbbeyWood see Servicemen doing. When I did those jobs, I was claiming Family Income Supplement for a wife and one child, such was my pay. Promotion into MoD(PE) was a distant aspiration. AbbeyWood still has a few CS who remember those days and twitch at the sight of Lt Colonels and Majors doing the same jobs for 3 times the salary. And one must always remember the rule that CS are required to "crack on without complaint" if these serving officers cannot, or do not want to, do their job (for which very few are trained). The problem is, CS are no longer trained either.
I know, one small example, but it illustrates the root cause of many problems in MoD. The vast majority in AbbeyWood, and that is a goodly proportion of the MoD CS these days, simply has no idea whatsoever what a given CS grade is required to do. Most are at grades at least 2 or 3 above what their job description warrants. Most CS at AbbeyWood look UP to RqMs and MILSMs, not realising these are jobs they should have been competent at themselves, long before being promoted into AbbeyWood. And that is the real root. CS are no longer promoted into AbbeyWood.
I have always said it. The best CS (in acquisition) are those who have worked backwards through the "acquisition cycle". If you haven't worked in the In Service phase, your exposure to Users is very limited, which blights your decision making and attitudes for the rest of your career. Today, that experience, and hence empathy with Users, is positively frowned upon. Management sets the tone. They must change.
But the general opinion amongst many of the CS that work in my organisation seems to be that the military get paid the 'big bucks' so we should crack on without complaint!
I think I've demonstrated many times what side I'm on. The CS needs to buck up and stop dumbing down, although I think it has probably reached rock bottom. I'm probably wrong on that last one.
But, to be fair to any CS with that attitude about "big bucks", I refer you to my example about Requirements Managers and MILSMs - which is what most CS in AbbeyWood see Servicemen doing. When I did those jobs, I was claiming Family Income Supplement for a wife and one child, such was my pay. Promotion into MoD(PE) was a distant aspiration. AbbeyWood still has a few CS who remember those days and twitch at the sight of Lt Colonels and Majors doing the same jobs for 3 times the salary. And one must always remember the rule that CS are required to "crack on without complaint" if these serving officers cannot, or do not want to, do their job (for which very few are trained). The problem is, CS are no longer trained either.
I know, one small example, but it illustrates the root cause of many problems in MoD. The vast majority in AbbeyWood, and that is a goodly proportion of the MoD CS these days, simply has no idea whatsoever what a given CS grade is required to do. Most are at grades at least 2 or 3 above what their job description warrants. Most CS at AbbeyWood look UP to RqMs and MILSMs, not realising these are jobs they should have been competent at themselves, long before being promoted into AbbeyWood. And that is the real root. CS are no longer promoted into AbbeyWood.
I have always said it. The best CS (in acquisition) are those who have worked backwards through the "acquisition cycle". If you haven't worked in the In Service phase, your exposure to Users is very limited, which blights your decision making and attitudes for the rest of your career. Today, that experience, and hence empathy with Users, is positively frowned upon. Management sets the tone. They must change.
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Originally Posted by tucumseh
If you haven't worked in the In Service phase, your exposure to Users is very limited, which blights your decision making and attitudes for the rest of your career.
Regarding CSs manning fire stations, not that many have received the necessary level of training as part of their day job. PHOENIX trained and recent Afloat Support staff would be competent but their conditions of service would make it near impossible.
Flexible my ar$e!! Most of the CS I have worked with have been so inflexible in their approach to work ethics, mobility, dynamic thinking etc that I found them irrelevant to day to day operations.
Most care little for promotion or their reports; many have worked at the same units for 15-25 years and are so stuck in their ways that even levering them out of their chairs for a Christmas Lunch is nigh on impossible. The rules that protect them are draconian and its very difficult to get rid of under performers. Admittedly, I have only worked with C grade and below. And don't get me started on that EMR bee-locks!!!
Most care little for promotion or their reports; many have worked at the same units for 15-25 years and are so stuck in their ways that even levering them out of their chairs for a Christmas Lunch is nigh on impossible. The rules that protect them are draconian and its very difficult to get rid of under performers. Admittedly, I have only worked with C grade and below. And don't get me started on that EMR bee-locks!!!
Inflexible, was I?
Recruited Scientific Civil Service age 18, 3 cracking good A levels Pure Maths, Applied Maths, Physics, 9 good O levels including English [2] and French. No woodwork, RI or underwaterbasketweaving.
Sent to RAF Uxbridge as an Assistant Scientific, then quickly to Stanmore for 3 months Met. observer training, three years later promoted to Assistant Experimental Officer [degree men could jump in at that level] and sent to programme the very early Ferranti Mercury computer at Dunstable, age 23 sent on Initial Forecast Course 3 months very rigorous exam, to Gatwick as rookie forecaster, to RAF Nicosia ditto, to RAF Leeming, to Advanced Forecast Course, promoted Experimental Officer, to RAF Topcliffe, numerous detachments Acklington Leeming Dishforth, Church Fenton ...... to RAF Guetersloh, to RAF Finningley, GIT COurse, combined teaching RAF and forecasting, promotion board after 10 years relevant experience and numerous staishes giving tick in box, now Senior Experimental Officer [about SLdr level] to HQ to be member team nudging Computer producing numerical forecasts, to Met Office College to teach Cambridge and Oxford Firsts, and Doctors, meteorology, to JHQ Rheindahlen as member forecasting team looking after all N Europe including the Eastern parts, also Taceval Met man, also 1 BR Corps on exercises, promoted after very very probing interview to Principal [age 43 at this point] posted RAF Bawtry as 1 Group Principal Met Officer, to Leeds to set up major regional office, to Cardiff to run SW UK Met, to HQ i/c Met services nuclear and chemical inductries and contingencies, to JHQ again as Chief Met Officer BFG, to Brize Norton retaining the Germany resposibility and all Southern UK military. To grass at 60, decent lump sum and 1/2 pay. I was far from unusual, it is what we did, I just did it better than some.
A family move every three years on average, disciplines: forecasting for military aviation, civil aviation, civil public services,computer programming, teaching and management.
Now, where is that broom?
Easily best customers light blue uniforms, thanks chaps and chappesses.
Recruited Scientific Civil Service age 18, 3 cracking good A levels Pure Maths, Applied Maths, Physics, 9 good O levels including English [2] and French. No woodwork, RI or underwaterbasketweaving.
Sent to RAF Uxbridge as an Assistant Scientific, then quickly to Stanmore for 3 months Met. observer training, three years later promoted to Assistant Experimental Officer [degree men could jump in at that level] and sent to programme the very early Ferranti Mercury computer at Dunstable, age 23 sent on Initial Forecast Course 3 months very rigorous exam, to Gatwick as rookie forecaster, to RAF Nicosia ditto, to RAF Leeming, to Advanced Forecast Course, promoted Experimental Officer, to RAF Topcliffe, numerous detachments Acklington Leeming Dishforth, Church Fenton ...... to RAF Guetersloh, to RAF Finningley, GIT COurse, combined teaching RAF and forecasting, promotion board after 10 years relevant experience and numerous staishes giving tick in box, now Senior Experimental Officer [about SLdr level] to HQ to be member team nudging Computer producing numerical forecasts, to Met Office College to teach Cambridge and Oxford Firsts, and Doctors, meteorology, to JHQ Rheindahlen as member forecasting team looking after all N Europe including the Eastern parts, also Taceval Met man, also 1 BR Corps on exercises, promoted after very very probing interview to Principal [age 43 at this point] posted RAF Bawtry as 1 Group Principal Met Officer, to Leeds to set up major regional office, to Cardiff to run SW UK Met, to HQ i/c Met services nuclear and chemical inductries and contingencies, to JHQ again as Chief Met Officer BFG, to Brize Norton retaining the Germany resposibility and all Southern UK military. To grass at 60, decent lump sum and 1/2 pay. I was far from unusual, it is what we did, I just did it better than some.
A family move every three years on average, disciplines: forecasting for military aviation, civil aviation, civil public services,computer programming, teaching and management.
Now, where is that broom?
Easily best customers light blue uniforms, thanks chaps and chappesses.
I do not descend to rudeness. I am, however, glad we did not meet: most of the RAF and Army that I dealt with, of all ranks, had the instincts of gentlemen.
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I do not descend to rudeness. I am, however, glad we did not meet: most of the RAF and Army that I dealt with, of all ranks, had the instincts of gentlemen.
Naughty, naughty little troll. I am certainly not going to discuss your problem in public. If you want help, please PM.
LB:
The crucial word of course is "it". Seeing as your gratuitous CV appears little more than an account of your rise through the myriad CS grades to Metman Supremo, the temptation on this forum is to equate it to the meteoric rise of the CS's and VSO's who gave us a whole generation of Grossly Unairworthy UK Military Aircraft. It is at least a point in your favour that you could have had no hand in that scandal, presumably. A word to the wise, save the dinner table reminisces for the dinner table.
SS, your posts make you sound like a boring, irritating young git.
I was far from unusual, it is what we did, I just did it better than some.
SS, your posts make you sound like a boring, irritating young git.
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Never worked with you so couldn't say. But your post makes you sound like a boring, irritating old git. Is that what you were trying to portray?
Are you throwing down your glove grandad? Be careful you don't trip over your pee-pot.
Sad person!Some good discussions here. I have personally known many CSs over the years and I have found the majority of them to be hard working, dedicated individuals, who would go the extra mile to resolve an issue or do the “right thing”. I have also known a minority of individuals who were just a pain in the behind. But hey! You get that anywhere, including the RAF.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
LB, I know 2 met men from near us both. One had been the resident SMetO for ever. The other used to hop about a bit, Ascension, Antarctica etc and once even promoted and posted. His pay dropped so he came back and resumed his shift pay. He too had been basically at the same unit for ever. One of the assistants there, also did ASI, but again was resident for ever.
Your mobility was presumaably by choice and not by dictat.
Your mobility was presumaably by choice and not by dictat.
Yes, there were indeed two beasts ....... happy to be mobile, or desperate not to move. The latter were usually people with spouses in better, and immobile, jobs. But the terms and conditions were enforceable mobility for all Met. After about 1980, overseas posts were invariably filled by volunteers.
My initial burst of CV was to demonstrate mobility almost on a par with the RAF, whose camp fires I followed.
My initial burst of CV was to demonstrate mobility almost on a par with the RAF, whose camp fires I followed.