We Are All Equal In The Eyes Of God.
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We Are All Equal In The Eyes Of God.
Today there is to be a memorial service held in Lincoln Cathedral for Flt Lt Jon Egging. Whilst it is right that we remember and honour our fellow servicemen who have died, Jon should not be set on a pedestal. He was after all a squadron pilot who tragically died performing his duty. The fact that Jon was Red 4 should have no bearing on how we treat his death. We should not allow the media to direct our thoughts in the wrong direction. In my 40 years’ service in the Royal Air Force I have seen many, far too many, friends and colleagues die in flying accidents. From disappearing into the North Sea in the middle of the night to being involved in a mid-air collision, they were all squadron aircrew performing their duty.
I think that the Jon Egging Trust will do a lot of good for young people, however, I believe that the RAF has made a mistake and displayed poor judgement. Whilst we should support Emma in what she is trying to do, the RAF should stand back a little. If they provide a disproportionate amount of support it sets Jon’s death apart from all those fellow aircrew who have paid the ultimate sacrifice.
The world of military aviation is a dangerous place. We do our best to minimise the risk, however, there will always be accidents and deaths. No one person or their family should be treated any differently from all of the others, no matter what their rank, branch or creed. It is the deceased person’s family that we need care for, no matter what the circumstances of death were. The Royal Air Force now is a small family and we all need to care for and support each other equally
I think that the Jon Egging Trust will do a lot of good for young people, however, I believe that the RAF has made a mistake and displayed poor judgement. Whilst we should support Emma in what she is trying to do, the RAF should stand back a little. If they provide a disproportionate amount of support it sets Jon’s death apart from all those fellow aircrew who have paid the ultimate sacrifice.
The world of military aviation is a dangerous place. We do our best to minimise the risk, however, there will always be accidents and deaths. No one person or their family should be treated any differently from all of the others, no matter what their rank, branch or creed. It is the deceased person’s family that we need care for, no matter what the circumstances of death were. The Royal Air Force now is a small family and we all need to care for and support each other equally
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Whilst I agree entirely with the OP, what tragically happened to Red 4 happened very much in the public eye; tens of thousands of people were in Bournemouth after watching the Reds perform and so naturally there was a lot of interest. As such, the RAF (rightly or wrongly) feels that it should be more public in the rememberance. Why it may not be right; if it brings more attention to the sacrifices that our aircrew make, I don't think what has been done is inappropriate.
RIP
RIP
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I don't think what has been done is inappropriate.
...if it brings more attention to the sacrifices that our aircrew make, I don't think what has been done is inappropriate.
A good decision by the family and the Royal Air Force.
I'm with you, Dominator, on this...
Kind of has the Diana "outpouring of national grief" about it. Certainly not the way of the RAF that I joined and loved for 20-odd years. If you want to go on about "thousands of public" what about the F4 crew that wiped themselves out at RAF Abingdon Battle of Briatin Airshow in 1988? Or the 7 in the Nimrod that ploughed in into the Lake Ontario at a Canadian Airshow in 1995. That's 9 "undeserving" of their deaths because they didn't wear red flying suits - try telling that to their relatives.
I think this whole fiasco is very poorly misjudged on the part of the many bereaved of the many RAF aircrew lost over the past 91 years.
LJ
Kind of has the Diana "outpouring of national grief" about it. Certainly not the way of the RAF that I joined and loved for 20-odd years. If you want to go on about "thousands of public" what about the F4 crew that wiped themselves out at RAF Abingdon Battle of Briatin Airshow in 1988? Or the 7 in the Nimrod that ploughed in into the Lake Ontario at a Canadian Airshow in 1995. That's 9 "undeserving" of their deaths because they didn't wear red flying suits - try telling that to their relatives.
I think this whole fiasco is very poorly misjudged on the part of the many bereaved of the many RAF aircrew lost over the past 91 years.
LJ
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It was a lovely service, and IMHO as a serving officer who knew Jon, perfectly judged. I am grateful I could go. Everyone says nice things about others when they die, but Eggman really was a top bloke and that was reflected in everything that was said.
There was a large contingent of Service personnel, from Jon's time starting on SUAS to the Reds, and everything in between. I think the size and venue had nothing to do with the fact his death was in the public eye and everything to do with the fact that he made such an impression on those he met. I don't imagine there were more than a few people there who didn't know Jon personally.
Emma Egging was brilliant; she may have managed not to cry during her speech but the same couldn't be said for many of the rest of us.
There was a large contingent of Service personnel, from Jon's time starting on SUAS to the Reds, and everything in between. I think the size and venue had nothing to do with the fact his death was in the public eye and everything to do with the fact that he made such an impression on those he met. I don't imagine there were more than a few people there who didn't know Jon personally.
Emma Egging was brilliant; she may have managed not to cry during her speech but the same couldn't be said for many of the rest of us.
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"We Are All Equal In The Eyes Of God"
But not all equal in the eyes of the public perhaps. Deaths of servicement and women in overseas theatres don't draw the same publicity as a generalisation, although I wish they would.
But not all equal in the eyes of the public perhaps. Deaths of servicement and women in overseas theatres don't draw the same publicity as a generalisation, although I wish they would.
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A sign of the times and not the best of moves.
Quiet dignity (no criticism of Mrs Egging and family meant whatsoever) and a British reserve in these situations get my vote.
As has been already stated, or alluded to, these qualities were steamrollered after the unfortunate demise of the Princess of Wales in '97.
Those pecularly reserved British eccentricities that were envied and admired by the rest of the world are now gone.
Quiet dignity (no criticism of Mrs Egging and family meant whatsoever) and a British reserve in these situations get my vote.
As has been already stated, or alluded to, these qualities were steamrollered after the unfortunate demise of the Princess of Wales in '97.
Those pecularly reserved British eccentricities that were envied and admired by the rest of the world are now gone.
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To add to LJ's list, there was no such pomp and ceremony for poor Lt Cdr Bill Murton RN and his aircraft fitter Neil Rix from the RN Historic Flight when their Fairey Firefly tent-pegged at a Duxford Flying Legends Airshow in July 2003.
I'm sure Eggman was a thoroughly nice chap, but private non-public proceedings have always been best - open bar at the Mess, sing some songs and think of better days
Not this new type of "I'm a celebrity..." performance
CPL Clott
I'm sure Eggman was a thoroughly nice chap, but private non-public proceedings have always been best - open bar at the Mess, sing some songs and think of better days
Not this new type of "I'm a celebrity..." performance
CPL Clott
When Flt Lt Peter Stacey bought the farm back in the 80s in a Meteor T7 at an airshow at Coventry, there was some press coverage but no service in Lincoln Cathedral, just a normal military service at the local church to Scampton.
Add to the list Flt Lt Potter and Cpl Turner from the RAF Vintage Pair collision at RAF Mildenhall in May 1986 in front of a crowd of 150,000.
So all in all, over 30 years, that is 2 at Abingdon, 7 in Canada, 2 in Duxford, 2 in Mildenhall and 1 at Coventry that aren't going to get a statue on Bournemouth seafront and a service at a Cathedral. If you go back to Battle of Britain Air Days in the late 40s then the numbers are even more shocking - one day they lost 3x Mosquitos with one going into the crowd!
Now if the RAF, the Reds and Charity want to recover this recent "assymetric campaign of grief", they should use Jon's loss as a catalyst for a National Memorial for all those Service aviators that have lost their lives on the display circuit. That would be fair, just and a fitting recognition of Jon's and his fellow aviator's sacrifice. Plus, whilst we're at it, those on the display circuit used to get a Queen's Commendation after 2 seasons - that was stopped in the mid 90s. How about reviving that (plus retrospectively) for official Service Display Teams?
The B Word
So all in all, over 30 years, that is 2 at Abingdon, 7 in Canada, 2 in Duxford, 2 in Mildenhall and 1 at Coventry that aren't going to get a statue on Bournemouth seafront and a service at a Cathedral. If you go back to Battle of Britain Air Days in the late 40s then the numbers are even more shocking - one day they lost 3x Mosquitos with one going into the crowd!
Now if the RAF, the Reds and Charity want to recover this recent "assymetric campaign of grief", they should use Jon's loss as a catalyst for a National Memorial for all those Service aviators that have lost their lives on the display circuit. That would be fair, just and a fitting recognition of Jon's and his fellow aviator's sacrifice. Plus, whilst we're at it, those on the display circuit used to get a Queen's Commendation after 2 seasons - that was stopped in the mid 90s. How about reviving that (plus retrospectively) for official Service Display Teams?
The B Word
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B Word
Hear, hear
Your 3 Mosquitos lost on 18 Sep 1948 were:
TE808 Stalled into Battle of Britain crowd after slow roll,killed the crew and several spectators at Manston,Kent.
TA507 No 51 MU. Stalled during aerobatic display Lichfield ,Staffs. Crashed on hospital, killing crew and 10 people on the ground.
VA887 139 Sqn. Dived into the ground during slow roll Coningsby,Lincs crew killed.
I reckon if this happened today, airshows would be banned forever (and probably rightly so!).
Hear, hear
Your 3 Mosquitos lost on 18 Sep 1948 were:
TE808 Stalled into Battle of Britain crowd after slow roll,killed the crew and several spectators at Manston,Kent.
TA507 No 51 MU. Stalled during aerobatic display Lichfield ,Staffs. Crashed on hospital, killing crew and 10 people on the ground.
VA887 139 Sqn. Dived into the ground during slow roll Coningsby,Lincs crew killed.
I reckon if this happened today, airshows would be banned forever (and probably rightly so!).
In addition to the six Mosquitos crew, were 10 civilians including a small child, who were all killed from the wreckage of TE808. In addition, on the same day the pilot of a Spitfire PR19, PM622, was killed at Leuchars and the pilot of a Harvard was killed at Feltwell. Asimilar number of accidents took place on 19th September 1953 which resulted in two fatalities. Both Meteor F8 pilots. Up to the end of the 1950s, Battle of Britain "At Homes" never managed to get away without something happening somewhere, not necessarily involving fatalities, but accidents just the same. However, when one considers that even in 1959, there were 31 R.A.F. Stations holding airshows simultaneously, its hardly surprising.
CC, I can't agree on ending airshows today because of what typically happened more than 50 years ago.
FB
CC, I can't agree on ending airshows today because of what typically happened more than 50 years ago.
FB
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You could also add the RAF Navigator (and 3 Rolls Royce Aircrew) and 3 ATC guys on the ground in Vulcan VX770 at Syerston in 1958. That was pretty public and I beleive now on you tube.
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You could also add the RAF Navigator (and 3 Rolls Royce Aircrew) and 3 ATC guys on the ground in Vulcan VX770 at Syerston in 1958....
