Sentinel Relocates to GDC
The thing that really does disturb me is the parochial nature of the arguments from the light-blue and green that fly it - it smacks of "job protectionism" rather than trying to get the best for the Service. As said before, we could bring both UORs into core if we binned this early.
OK, I've looked up the cleared service ceiling and it is 51,000ft; I was wrong on that figure. But Biggus is right about minimising weight to achieve anywhere near 45kft.
Now which other manned ISTAR assets do we have that sit at this demanded 45-60k you speak of...? Go on, do tell
Sentry - Nope, NAEW&FC commitment written in stone, critical asset for FJs (Typhoon, F-35, Tornado), also critical for making sure that sitting ducks like Sentinel know that the bad guys are coming
Not too sure one would want to wait for AWACs to pass on a threat - probably much too late!!! Always best to cut out the middle man - go direct!
Here is the current Sqn Cdr spelling out the endurance issues of not having AAR and why basing close to theatre (or in the case of Afghanistan "in theatre") really matters...
Oh dear, where's your credibility now Mr Peacock? 
OC 5(AC) Sqn, Wg Cdr Marshall, explains how the move to Gioia del Colle will enhance the Sentinel’s mission time and explains how the operational and tactical intelligence gathered by the aircraft has had a tangible effect on the success of the operation.
“The relocation of Sentinel to Gioia del Colle airbase reduces our transit distance to and from Libya, increasing the time that the aircraft is able to remain on task for each sortie. This increased task time will permit additional data to be collected and, when combined with the ability to interact face-to-face with the co-located Tornado GR4 crews and Tactical Imagery Wing analysts , will significantly enhance the contribution that Sentinel is able to make to the Libya operation.
“The relocation of Sentinel to Gioia del Colle airbase reduces our transit distance to and from Libya, increasing the time that the aircraft is able to remain on task for each sortie. This increased task time will permit additional data to be collected and, when combined with the ability to interact face-to-face with the co-located Tornado GR4 crews and Tactical Imagery Wing analysts , will significantly enhance the contribution that Sentinel is able to make to the Libya operation.
PS Sitting above 45k+ allows you to sit above a lot of mobile SAMs. The last asset we had to do that was the PR9 (
) and now only Typhoon sits up there but has no recce role. Still the US have U2, WB-57, RQ-4 and others that can do that, so why can't we ask for manned/unmanned assets that sit up there as well - why settle for second (or third or fourth) best?
) and now only Typhoon sits up there but has no recce role. Still the US have U2, WB-57, RQ-4 and others that can do that, so why can't we ask for manned/unmanned assets that sit up there as well - why settle for second (or third or fourth) best?
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Hmm, iRaven appears in Oct 10 just as another ISTAR "expert" retires from PPRuNe (but continues holding court amongst the air power intelligentsia on ARRSE).....iRaven, you ARE Magic Mushroom and I claim my £5......
iR
You are not seeing the wood for the trees. Even common sense would indicate that: Less transit time = more loiter time.
Put the entire Op E fleet in Tripoli and - gosh - everyone has more time on task!!!! Clearly any transit of an ISTAR asset will reduce its on-station loiter time. Do most high value assets get based in the thick of it? Have we seen some ISTAR assets transitting for 3hrs plus at either end of the loiter?? Are you really saying you want everything up for as long is feasibly possible??? Good, I thought not.
So, what has OC 5 Sqn said that rubbishes my credibility??? (I'm waiting -PM if you need to!)
Sentinel has its flaws; however, you chose to question why it could only sit on station for 6:30hr due to being too heavy and that an AAR capability would have solved this. Quite simply you are wrong! Like most things in life it is a compromise. Sentinel is a bloody good compromise between fuel v time v loiter.
And no, the PR9 did not 'sit' above 45k. It could go well above, but didn't when on task!!!
You are not seeing the wood for the trees. Even common sense would indicate that: Less transit time = more loiter time.
Put the entire Op E fleet in Tripoli and - gosh - everyone has more time on task!!!! Clearly any transit of an ISTAR asset will reduce its on-station loiter time. Do most high value assets get based in the thick of it? Have we seen some ISTAR assets transitting for 3hrs plus at either end of the loiter?? Are you really saying you want everything up for as long is feasibly possible??? Good, I thought not.
So, what has OC 5 Sqn said that rubbishes my credibility??? (I'm waiting -PM if you need to!)
Sentinel has its flaws; however, you chose to question why it could only sit on station for 6:30hr due to being too heavy and that an AAR capability would have solved this. Quite simply you are wrong! Like most things in life it is a compromise. Sentinel is a bloody good compromise between fuel v time v loiter.
And no, the PR9 did not 'sit' above 45k. It could go well above, but didn't when on task!!!
Last edited by H Peacock; 23rd Oct 2011 at 22:32.
Peacock
You seem to be going around in circles, dear boy...
Then you say above in your latest post that it would appear to need to, but then say that you don't need to stay up as long as possible. I'm sure if Sentinel is as "key" as you all make out then, yes, it should fly to max endurance for the supported unit.
By the way, I agree it could operate from airfields in Afghanistan if it had the major upgrade that it would need to allow the ODH to declare ALARP in theatre - and that's not going to happen as it's going to be scrapped and would therefore be a waste of money!
As for "bloody good compromise" - don't make me laugh! The whole thing is another procurement shambles and the NAO should be all over this as it is with others. Failed to deliver, late, over budget, barely IOC and delivered with in-built obsolesence issues from the start to name but a few.
Sargs
Magic Mushrooms - never touched them, flew them or even set foot in one. Keep looking for your fiver, fella...
iRaven
You seem to be going around in circles, dear boy...
H Peacock wrote:
Well, it could operate from airfields in Afghanistan, but simply doesn't need to.
Well, it could operate from airfields in Afghanistan, but simply doesn't need to.
By the way, I agree it could operate from airfields in Afghanistan if it had the major upgrade that it would need to allow the ODH to declare ALARP in theatre - and that's not going to happen as it's going to be scrapped and would therefore be a waste of money!
As for "bloody good compromise" - don't make me laugh! The whole thing is another procurement shambles and the NAO should be all over this as it is with others. Failed to deliver, late, over budget, barely IOC and delivered with in-built obsolesence issues from the start to name but a few.
Sargs
Magic Mushrooms - never touched them, flew them or even set foot in one. Keep looking for your fiver, fella...
iRaven
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FWIW, iRaven is fairly accurate in his posts.
All I see is a lot of 'new' posters obviously from 5 trying to justify the frame. Libya was a last roll of the dice for the aircraft and it is understandable that some try and 'expand' its worth and capabilities.
It's worth was negligible IMO with all the other assets out in OE that managed to work together. It is simply a product that has been overtaken with smaller, cheaper more persistent assets.
I have heard the rumours about possibly keeping it, however take the pat on the back fella's they are just being 'nice to you' watch out for the knife.
All I see is a lot of 'new' posters obviously from 5 trying to justify the frame. Libya was a last roll of the dice for the aircraft and it is understandable that some try and 'expand' its worth and capabilities.
It's worth was negligible IMO with all the other assets out in OE that managed to work together. It is simply a product that has been overtaken with smaller, cheaper more persistent assets.
I have heard the rumours about possibly keeping it, however take the pat on the back fella's they are just being 'nice to you' watch out for the knife.
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All I see are "new" posters from 5 patiently trying to explain, without overstepping the line, that most of the tosh on here is just that - tosh. Many of the criticisms come from people like Tourist who obviously know a bit (I take it he's a friend of Bish) but have no idea of what's really happening out there. iRaven is the worst perpetrator - he's throwing around technical hearsays like "WBDL" without having a clue what it really does. I admit that ASTOR has had the odd problem, probably still has, but those who are operating it know the real worth of it. The rest of it is just semi-informed rubbish.
By the way, I'm not on 5 and I don't have one of B Words brevets - but I do know what I'm talking about.
By the way, I'm not on 5 and I don't have one of B Words brevets - but I do know what I'm talking about.
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Fire ‘n’ Forget,
For my edification, could you please point out exactly what bits of iRaven’s bollocks you believe to be “fairly accurate”!? I'll let you know whether you are correct.
The guy appears to be a crack smoking, mentalist, F---Wit who likes to pull facts and figures out of his arse (no offence iRaven).
I too don’t wear any of the B Words brevets but can’t believe the utter horsesh!t I’m reading on this forum from guys who should know much, much better.
I would also advise that iRaven is clearly loving the attention he is managing to command by spouting his tosh. Maybe if we ignore him he might go somewhere else and talk bollocks on another subject he knows F’ All about…….
For my edification, could you please point out exactly what bits of iRaven’s bollocks you believe to be “fairly accurate”!? I'll let you know whether you are correct.
The guy appears to be a crack smoking, mentalist, F---Wit who likes to pull facts and figures out of his arse (no offence iRaven).
I too don’t wear any of the B Words brevets but can’t believe the utter horsesh!t I’m reading on this forum from guys who should know much, much better.
I would also advise that iRaven is clearly loving the attention he is managing to command by spouting his tosh. Maybe if we ignore him he might go somewhere else and talk bollocks on another subject he knows F’ All about…….
Well I welcome the comments from the 5 Sqn chaps as they are the only experts on what Sentinel can or cannot do. Having 'witnessed' these facts I am more than happy for them to be corrected, tweaked or put in context by the Army, RAF and RN people that actually operate the aircraft:
Endurance - Seen the aircraft depart on an operational task and recover to Cyprus with over 12hrs between the T/O and recovery times. No suggestion that it landed and hid anywhere so I guess we can call it a fact that it can and does achieve 12hrs plus in an op configuration. Less than 2 hrs later the aircraft was off again for another 12hrs plus.
Utility - Despite only having 4 aircraft all 4 were deployed in March (and perhaps repeated since) to cover 2 ops. Given the 'risk' taken by the powers that be with the number of hours accumulated, days away and cumulative fatigue plus suspension of OCU and trg one would hope that the end users demand for the product was in high demand to balance the 'risk'.
Altitude - Not sure of the absolute limit but as a windscreen delaminated in front of a pilot cruising at FL490 at 0.8M (judging by the recent incident report) it looks like it goes pretty high.
Future Fleet - The original trials aircraft (no mission capability) was laid up at Broughton some time ago. Post-SDSR money seems to have been found to bring it up to full mission capability which will increase the fleet size to 5 as of next year.
End Users - Despite the criticism on here the coalition users of the collect provided are almost gushing in praise for the aircraft and the capability provided. As a 'user' myself I can add my own praise here too.
Cost - Don't know how much we paid for development but per flying hour it appears to be the cheapest to operate Air Cmd asset we own.
No doubt I hand the thread over to those who like to do nothing more than administer scorn on the lads and lasses who serve us so well in 2 operational theatres. Just where did all the pride in our colleagues go?
Endurance - Seen the aircraft depart on an operational task and recover to Cyprus with over 12hrs between the T/O and recovery times. No suggestion that it landed and hid anywhere so I guess we can call it a fact that it can and does achieve 12hrs plus in an op configuration. Less than 2 hrs later the aircraft was off again for another 12hrs plus.
Utility - Despite only having 4 aircraft all 4 were deployed in March (and perhaps repeated since) to cover 2 ops. Given the 'risk' taken by the powers that be with the number of hours accumulated, days away and cumulative fatigue plus suspension of OCU and trg one would hope that the end users demand for the product was in high demand to balance the 'risk'.
Altitude - Not sure of the absolute limit but as a windscreen delaminated in front of a pilot cruising at FL490 at 0.8M (judging by the recent incident report) it looks like it goes pretty high.
Future Fleet - The original trials aircraft (no mission capability) was laid up at Broughton some time ago. Post-SDSR money seems to have been found to bring it up to full mission capability which will increase the fleet size to 5 as of next year.
End Users - Despite the criticism on here the coalition users of the collect provided are almost gushing in praise for the aircraft and the capability provided. As a 'user' myself I can add my own praise here too.
Cost - Don't know how much we paid for development but per flying hour it appears to be the cheapest to operate Air Cmd asset we own.
No doubt I hand the thread over to those who like to do nothing more than administer scorn on the lads and lasses who serve us so well in 2 operational theatres. Just where did all the pride in our colleagues go?
Finally, a usefull contribution...
'Just This Once' - excellent post.
Finally, someone with first-hand experience and knowledge adds a worth-while post regarding Sentinel/ASTOR. If some would actually look at the link provided by 'Rulebreaker', post #32, it would be noted that the ASTOR System (5 x aircraft, 6 x TGS, 2 x OLGS and 10 years of support for around £850M is an absolute bargain! How much will Scavenger cost??
Anyone with any real experience of ISTAR or UAS, will appreciate that ASTOR and UAS are complimentary systems; however, a UAS EO/IR/GMTI sensor package is extemely limited and should be compared to looking through a 'straw'. UAS require to be cross-queued to be effective but are excllent at localisation and identification.
In a perferct world, I would have Reaper, Watchkeeper, Scavenger and ASTOR working together, but if money was limited, I would keep to a combat proven system that is extremely flexible, is paid for, is very cost-effective and is in-service!
Bring on the brick-bats!
Finally, someone with first-hand experience and knowledge adds a worth-while post regarding Sentinel/ASTOR. If some would actually look at the link provided by 'Rulebreaker', post #32, it would be noted that the ASTOR System (5 x aircraft, 6 x TGS, 2 x OLGS and 10 years of support for around £850M is an absolute bargain! How much will Scavenger cost??
Anyone with any real experience of ISTAR or UAS, will appreciate that ASTOR and UAS are complimentary systems; however, a UAS EO/IR/GMTI sensor package is extemely limited and should be compared to looking through a 'straw'. UAS require to be cross-queued to be effective but are excllent at localisation and identification.
In a perferct world, I would have Reaper, Watchkeeper, Scavenger and ASTOR working together, but if money was limited, I would keep to a combat proven system that is extremely flexible, is paid for, is very cost-effective and is in-service!
Bring on the brick-bats!
however, a UAS EO/IR/GMTI sensor package is extemely limited and should be compared to looking through a 'straw'. UAS require to be cross-queued to be effective but are excllent at localisation and identification.
Endurance - Seen the aircraft depart on an operational task and recover to Cyprus with over 12hrs between the T/O and recovery times. No suggestion that it landed and hid anywhere so I guess we can call it a fact that it can and does achieve 12hrs plus in an op configuration. Less than 2 hrs later the aircraft was off again for another 12hrs plus.
Altitude - Not sure of the absolute limit but as a windscreen delaminated in front of a pilot cruising at FL490 at 0.8M (judging by the recent incident report) it looks like it goes pretty high.
it would be noted that the ASTOR System (5 x aircraft, 6 x TGS, 2 x OLGS and 10 years of support for around £850M is an absolute bargain! How much will Scavenger cost??
full mission capability
End Users - Despite the criticism on here the coalition users of the collect provided are almost gushing in praise for the aircraft and the capability provided. As a 'user' myself I can add my own praise here too.
Anyway, I'm off to smoke some crack and live in the funny farm now -
I just hope that my protest on potential spending scarce defence cash has been noted by those that matter.
Accordingly, I retire from this debate.
iRaven
Anyway, I'm off to smoke some crack and live in the funny farm now -
I just hope that my protest on potential spending scarce defence cash has been noted by those that matter.
Accordingly, I retire from this debate.
I just hope that my protest on potential spending scarce defence cash has been noted by those that matter.
Accordingly, I retire from this debate.
This thread still appears to be iRaven pointing out problems and flaws with Sentinel, and a bunch of people popping on to say YOU'RE WRONG IDIOT and throw some schoolboy insults about.
Rather than hurling abuse at iRaven, could one of these posters perhaps explain why iRaven is wrong, rather than just saying he is without any backup?
I'm sure there's a lot of stuff he's saying that you could easily disprove if it were untrue without smashing the OSA to bits.
Rather than hurling abuse at iRaven, could one of these posters perhaps explain why iRaven is wrong, rather than just saying he is without any backup?
I'm sure there's a lot of stuff he's saying that you could easily disprove if it were untrue without smashing the OSA to bits.
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5F 6B,
If you read most of the other posts on this forum not written by iRaven, the true and accurate details of the sentinel platform have pretty much been covered.
iRaven’s inability to post credible data in response to the knowledgeable posters on the forum, doesn’t mean he hasn’t been disproven. It just means it is rubbish.
Eg; a max temp of 25 degrees in Cyprus!? (Ellamy has been going on a long time and the Sentinel’s endurance hasn’t changed over the long summer months out there. I.e. MUCH warmer than 25 degrees). It’s just crap that isn’t worth the effort to respond to (I'm sure you can check the met office website for historical data at AKR if you really want to?....).
Not sure what else you are looking for?
If you read most of the other posts on this forum not written by iRaven, the true and accurate details of the sentinel platform have pretty much been covered.
iRaven’s inability to post credible data in response to the knowledgeable posters on the forum, doesn’t mean he hasn’t been disproven. It just means it is rubbish.
Eg; a max temp of 25 degrees in Cyprus!? (Ellamy has been going on a long time and the Sentinel’s endurance hasn’t changed over the long summer months out there. I.e. MUCH warmer than 25 degrees). It’s just crap that isn’t worth the effort to respond to (I'm sure you can check the met office website for historical data at AKR if you really want to?....).
Not sure what else you are looking for?
in response to the knowledgeable posters on the forum
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Mate, that is an excellent point,
For those who really, really want to know about a hugely complex, multi faceted, multi million pound, MOD ISTAR project that has taken years to develop and is currently deployed in 2 theatres. How about, instead of trawling internet forums where anonymous posters can write any old ****e and pass it off as the God’s honest truth. You might want to find an alternative source of broadening your horizons?! Like get up off your arse, turn off Pprune and do some old fashioned research!!!!
I know it will never catch on…..
For those who really, really want to know about a hugely complex, multi faceted, multi million pound, MOD ISTAR project that has taken years to develop and is currently deployed in 2 theatres. How about, instead of trawling internet forums where anonymous posters can write any old ****e and pass it off as the God’s honest truth. You might want to find an alternative source of broadening your horizons?! Like get up off your arse, turn off Pprune and do some old fashioned research!!!!
I know it will never catch on…..